[Abdel]

Eluviate, you know pretty well that the only reason you can hide the way you can with certain props is all because of the prop menu. Prop hunt is meant to find props in the map not in the walls and ceilings of the map. I'm going to be honest and say that you are just crying a river because we won't let you exploit and cheat the system through loophole to make yourself feel like the best prop player ever. I've told you many times to think about the size of the prop you're gonna be using and if most of that prop in in the wall, then there's a problem. Solution: don't hide in the walls and learn how to play the game like it didn't have a prop menu. We simply ask for you to be visible and fair, but you take that as, "I guess I gotta be a different prop in the wall that's bigger or more visible." It's like that's all you've grown accustomed to play as.

[Mantis]

What is the ruling on spots that you can get to by jet pack but are faster to get to by prop surfing like the one below.

Sorry ill reword my question because this doesn't answer it. The spot is see able from the ground, kill able with a default weapon, and achievable with a jet pack. Is it legal to prop surf to the spot due to jet pack route taking longer and being more inconstant. In other words can you prop surf to legal spots. Additionally if this is not allowed how can it be known whether the spot was achieved legally or illegally.

[Abdel]

On the jetpack thing, it's simple, be something big or something you can actually spot easily for players without a jetpack. Don't try to be something small like a can after you've gotten up to a spot that can only be achieved through prop surfing. By that point, it's just screaming unplayable for people without jetpack. Also just because regulars or staff can easily find/get you doesn't mean the spot is legal, this argument is beyond dumb. Don't try to justify your spot because of the "use prop surfing for fun" rule. Another thing, just cause staff isn't on doesn't mean these spots you all get into are legal.

[Pixie Soldier]

If you are inside the map boundaries, reasonably visible (not a pixel), and shootable with a standard weapon (not a nade) then you are fine. Yes you can prop surf there if you want. 

You cannot use prop surfing to exploit the map, this is where the issue has been.

[VolfVoss]

What is the ruling on spots that you can get to by jet pack but are faster to get to by prop surfing like the one below.

Sorry ill reword my question because this doesn't answer it. The spot is see able from the ground, kill able with a default weapon, and achievable with a jet pack. Is it legal to prop surf to the spot due to jet pack route taking longer and being more inconstant. In other words can you prop surf to legal spots. Additionally if this is not allowed how can it be known whether the spot was achieved legally or illegally.

Funny enough, my response does answer your question. 

Is it a spot only obtainable by Jet pack? The answer is yes because that's part of the game mode is using a Jet Pack. The use of prop surfing is a gravity/prop manipulation to create a boost. 

Do I suggest you push the limits by going to spots that you can't also get to using a jet pack? No I do not, as that can then be considered exploiting.

You may argue and say "well anyone can do it with practice" which is a true statement however like I said that prop surfing/climbing is a gravity/prop manipulation and wasn't (to my knowledge) placed into the game mode as a perk or addition but is rather a glitch.

IF you are asked to move by staff because where you're at is unreasonable then move and don't go back there. 

You want a black and white answer? Don't prop surf/climb then you don't have to worry whether or not your spot is legal pertaining to prop surfing spots.

[Eluviate]

There's spots on some maps that you can use prop stacking (meaning placing 2-3 crates on top of each other) and then the jump pack to get to a spot. Can you use prop surfing to skip those steps too? 
A good example is ph_villahouse, there's an adjacent roof that you can get to by box stacking next to the pool jumping off the crates and landing onto the roof.
I know this is considered off map  and whatnot so I don't plan on hiding there anyway, but there are some normal propsurf spots that you could get to with just box stacking instead. If prop surfing to those spots isn't allowed, what about prop stacking instead. Would that make some of these priorly illegal spots legal or would this make prop stacking just as bad as prop surfing. If prop surfing to those spots is illegal, but prop stacking isn't then how would staff tell the difference between a stacker and a surfer?

[Pixie Soldier]

It doesn't matter how you get there, I don't care how you get there.....prop surfing, stacking, a damn carrier pigeon....if its off the map then its not allowed simple as. If your having to ask so many questions about a spot then its probably not allowed. You know the rules, you know whats allowed. Stop trying to think of ways to get around the rules, they are there for a reason!

[TheUltraFish]

How about I keep this all incredibly simple. You keep abusing and pushing the boundaries for no reason other than to be a tryhard. We can either count your spots as illegal, for example: Your light post spot on parking lot, turning into a can there WOULD BE ILLEGAL. You cannot be seen there as a can, so don't even try it, or we can just make it illegal for props to prop surf unless you can get to the spot via jetpack. That rule would make things much easier but I don't think PH needs a specific rule for every scenario.

I also found your excuses/reasons rather humorous more than anything rather than evidence. Using photos as evidence counting the pixels while for once being completely seen via table. Table spots are not illegal when they are like that. WE ALL KNOW the true table spots you're referencing and those are the ones when you literally only 1 pixel of each leg showing through the ceiling. Also just because you have "fun" getting to a spot, DOES NOT make it a legal spot. If that were the case, then all spots would be legal because everyone could claim they had "fun" getting to said spots.

Stop abusing and pushing the limits or the rules will have to be adjusted to forcibly stop you.

[RussEfarmer]

I know I said I left, but I'm still a huge nerd in this game, so:

In my time of staffing, before prop rotation, we've only ever asked ourselves two questions when checking if a spot is legal: can you be seen, and can you be shot? If any of those were not the case, it was illegal, and only very seldomly do we look at a prop/spot combination and say "okay yeah that fucking sucks don't hide there."

Now that we have prop rotation though, you can take just about any prop and any place on the map with non-square geometry (or just any geometry if the prop is fucked up enough), and just rotate to a position where literally less than a percentage of the original prop is visible. With this being the growing meta on Dinklebergs, staff have to expand the official list of questions to ask "Can they be seen, can they be shot, and does this spot suck so much to play against that it shouldn't be allowed?"

The only problem is that last question is inherently subjective to the staff member answering it. A staff member that is an expert at prophunt and knows to look for things like this would most definitely answer the question differently than someone who doesn't play prophunt very competitively, and that's a big hurdle for doing this fairly. The "pixelhunt" meta is too versatile to go through and document every single prop and prop combo in every single map reasonably, and realistically MUST be enforced using human subjectivity. Discrepancies are definitely going to happen, just like with the way different staff members take care of different types of players.

[§bKiwi The Fruit]

Look, I get it. We all like the cheeky, impossible-to-reach spots. They're good for whenever people like Abdel or Voss or anyone else who have been on the server for a considerable amount of time are online. I've pulled a few bs spots myself. However, I always think: if I have to ask myself whether or not a spot is legal, I'm going to assume that it's not, and I'm going to move.

Not only that, but I feel like regulars on the server tend to use their knowledge of these spots to gain an incredibly unfair advantage against the newer users on the server. If you're on the server at 3 o'clock in the morning and nobody's on except for a few donors and a whole bunch of users, there's no reason to use those stupid, pixel-hunt spots. The rules are set in place to prevent those with tons of hours on the server from turning the new people away. This is the same issue I have with the jump packs, but that's a completely different discussion.

At the end of the day, if staff tells you not to do something, just simply don't do it. You're not being targeted by staff, and they're not trying to prevent you from having fun. But if your "fun" comes in the way of new players trying to get into the server, then that's a problem.