[Ace1579]

+1 yuh

[Demi Lovato's Heroin Spoon]

This is such a hard thing for me to wrap my head around, not because I care about the people banned, but because I don't care about how people act or display themselves on the internet. I don't care to read every single point of this- I've had enough college classes for the day, but what I feel like is being encouraged is sensitivity. I have never, and will never, agree with internet sensitivity. I came from a community I was active on for quite a few years, and I still carry the same friends; the brutal, unrelenting assholes I call some of the best damn guys I know. I'm not advocating for total anarchy, I'm advocating for the fact people need to grow the fuck up and stop being sheltered on the internet.

I don't blame the admins for withholding evidence for community sake, but fuck, if that ain't some shit if I've ever heard it. The whole, "order in chaos" thing sounds feudalistic. Also, from reading, Supreme Court overruled the initial ruling of Brandenberg, stating that Ohio did not have the power to "constitutionally punish abstract advocacy of force or law violation." I don't think the comparison is even relatable- obviously you used it as a premise rather than an idea, but still. In my honest opinion, this level of grip is a vice I just can't stand in communities.

Also, the use of quotes to place yourself over ideas to justify actions is irritating, but that's just a personal thing. As the great C. S. Lewis once said, "An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason." Maybe I'll toss this in here too to make people believe me, "All explanations tend to be self-serving." - Marty Rubin

About three of these bans I can understand, but can't help but hate the pike placed on them. From what I see, actively going out to target someone does not equal disagreeing with them, no matter how far you place your foot forward. I get it, we can't see all the details, so prepare for us to talk about what we can see rather than what we're told to trust you guys on.

As an avid WoW and League player, I suppose I've developed an internet callus most haven't. As said from a genius man in a YouTube comment, "Some people wouldn't survive three minutes in a Modern Warfare 2 lobby."

[Seeker]

Part of me wants to take half my night and tear into this, just rip it to shreds like I've done with everything else (respectfully and with a clear and concise message, of course).

Part of me just doesn't think it's worth it.

Will I run the risk of being labeled "part of the toxic hive mind" for having such a strong, dissenting opinion, despite what was said? There's a chance.

Why worry about that when I can be labeled part of it with a simple...

-1.

[Ricebowls]

I never said I didnt do anything wrong. So calm down there trying to act all big and mighty claiming WE wont admit our faults. Just because you guys made a long wall of text comparing this community to big life events (disrespectful in some ways and just total horseshit) doesnt make you right. Why would we waste our times making an unban for a incompetently ran community anyways. Others are afraid to say, but hell, I dont got nothing to lose so I mean. *shrug* Have fun playing Tiananmen Square on your gmod server, considering you like to compare it to historical events and massacres.

[Ckg]

I have stayed on the sidelines for the majority of this event but as Proper said before me, I think that there needs to be accountability for actions.  Generally speaking, if people have taken the time and effort to report someone for something such as harassment then there is something wrong. Even if you don't believe or didn't intend what you said to be harmful to someone, it still can be. And if it is, it is better to take a step back and reflect on what you did that could have caused that. Now while you don't have to admit total wrongdoing, you should still acknowledge that your actions harmed someone and that by proxy said actions harm the community as a whole. In this context, that doesn't mean groveling for forgiveness in unban requests, but it does mean that there should be some acknowledgment that what was done caused harm and that steps are being taken to prevent yourself from making the same errors in the future. In my personal opinion, if my actions harmed someone I think that I should also include an acknowledgment of some wrongdoing on my part and an apology to those hurt, but that's just me. About half of the people who were banned are people I played with and would consider my friends, and I would love to play with them again, but I think some form of accountability for their actions should be taken by them.

[matt_st3 (Strongrule)]

Oh I’m going to have to shorten what I want to write everyone’s going to hate me bc the only way my ADD headass can cope is to respond to 1-few paragraphs at a time.

https://ibb.co/R9BDk6j
You found him!

[dong]

Since I had a slight part in this all I can say is that I'm sorry. I was friends with everyone who got banned, and was involved in this "hivemind," but the thing is it wasn't a hivemind at all. We each had differing opinions, but were willing to defend those we cared about. While some may have taken it to larger lengths, I did not. With these bans you all essentially wiped out the last few reasons I even bothered to get on. I want to apologize to @HalfDemonLink and @"ritsuneru" all of the drama between us three I never intended to blow up as much as it did. Link, I valued our past friendship greatly, and Rits we were never really close, but I wish you two the best with your lives.

On another note, Laced Xanax was the best friend I've ever made on here. The amount of time and dedication he put into staffing on here is the best that I've ever seen. It baffles me that he was at one point being asked if he wanted admin, then a few weeks later gets banned. The server environment takes tolls on people, yes, but he was not heinous in any way. We all have our asshole moments, and realistically half of us should be banned considering the way we act.

The outcome of these bans has been something I've never seen, aside from the PH staff exodus of 2018. I know some of you may have read my previous forum post, but I am done with this community. I'm done with GMod, and perhaps gaming in general. College just started up and I want to better my life. I guess its a good thing you all pushed me away, was probably better for my health.

One thing that bothers, even though this isn't relevant to this post, is that the whole Mallakk situation that occurred at the beginning of this year only really got handled as of last month. That shows to me that I was never a valued staff member, or member of the community. After all the time and tears I invested on here, I feel no type of return or gratitude, not that I care anymore, but still.

This place was at one point like a home to me, but like many people do in their lives, it's time to move on. Thank you for everything you all have done for me, but it is also my time to go permanently. I will not be posting anything on the forums probably ever again, I'm deleting Discord and maybe steam. I'm just done. I'm drained and exhausted.

I guess this is goodbye.. for good.. go ahead and perm ban me on the server

For meme's sake and one last time,

Ding dong, peace out

[Mother Nuru.]

I'm still not appealing, but I find it unfair that half of the evidence shown is from after my original ban.

I don't care either way though, I had my fun in this community, but it is clear that certain people (including staff, who are exhibiting the same exact "hivemind" behaviors that you accuse me of having) don't want me here, and so I will take my leave. I love most of you, and it is hard for me to make this decision, but I must go. I will make one last post on my goodbye thread, and disappear.

Thank you all (well, not all of you) for the good times and laughs that we shared together. I hope some of us may meet again under different circumstances.

The reports that I know of, are those of you in the ban, so if you're personally comfortable talking to me, please tell me about others exhibiting the same behavior and I will personally look into it. I promise. I fully understand your reasoning for not appealing after speaking to you, and I don't blame you. I understand.

As one of the people involved in this whole shebang I still do not approve of you guys opting for full community bans, without warning to some, and pretending as if it's some sort of public display of shame towards these individuals to be forced to essentially beg for forgiveness in order to be unbanned. None of us wanted this. And before being accused of being a part of this so called "hivemind" I think it's extremely important to let people know that theres maybe 1 or 2 people that were banned that I can even stand talking to sometimes. No one was pushing me to have different opinions that what I truly felt. 

My biggest concern here is that you (the admins) are comparing community bans to that of dropping the fucking nukes on japan. That is incredibly disrespectful and uncalled for, this is not that extreme. You guys are in charge of running a community, not executing millions of people.

While gabe touched on the multiple groups formed, or as I call them, cliques,  how are you going to assess and determine which ones are toxic and which ones are just people being close? Since I'm one of the people you could consider too afraid to speak up for myself due to backlash, I'm gonna lay it down here now and point out that even while I was staff myself, the mods and admins will treat you like crap if you are not upper staff. I have barely acted differently since resigning yet now I am being dumpstered by people o thought were friendly. There is too much of a mob mentality still after this ban wave. Too many things are being turned away from with blind eyes that others would be decimated for. 


Anyways this is the worst thing I've ever written and sorry for that. I am still a salty boy.

We as admins even admit on our fault for not fully expressing things properly, or being able to show everything, etc. We are publicly admitting where we were wrong and that's pretty much all we were expecting as well. It's not a public display of shame, but admitting to mistakes and coming to realizations so they could change, and send a message to the community that toxicity was getting severe.. On top of this, we fully explained the lack of warnings (while for some it may have helped) if you had fully read, which it's obvious you didn't, sorry, the reason for not individually warning was the multiple posts, and threads and threads and posts made addressing toxic behavior, and many of these people were at the forefront for helping us combat it, but refused to acknowledge it their selves. I must also say the nukes thing was taken too literal on your part, we don't mean that this is literally a nuke drop, but reference the similarities. Not literalness?? As for the determination of cliques etc, it's extremely obvious when people are cliques and to the point they "gang" up together. I cannot and will not speak for TTT but if anyone on PH has felt like I was treating them like shit, I would prefer they come and tell me. Most of them tell me when I'm being an absolute bitch and that's how I prefer it. Keeping communication like that open, instead of closed, is so SO important. As for the rest of the incidents, i personally have not been reported to more than these people (that i can remember) so if there's more, and you're comfortable, as I told laced, please message me. I will personally look into it.

Looking over this update and putting some thought into it all of this seems a lot less than an organized "hivemind" and a lot more of "people have disagreements individually then the gossip gets out and people follow along and defend their friends." Each piece of evidence presented seems to stem from disagreements between a few people rather than an organized "let's be toxic" or "let's harass them!"

I am glad there was admittance of fault in the handling of this though I'm not 100% satisfied.

That was our fault for originally stating that it was everyone being a toxic hivemind, and we admit that. We were wrong to do so, and I am going to go ahead and apologize for that, because we have all agreed we messed up there.  But it is "cliques" that were attacking and that's where the "hivemind" thing came from. But the people banned were less cliqued together, and rather at the forefronts. It's fair to not be 100% satisfied, nobody on either side will be at any point if we're going to be honest. But us admitting our mistakes and also the other side doing the same, is what is fair to the community right now. If there's more we need to admit, we will. But we still honestly stand by our decision, this wasn't an overnight thing, but something that'd been discussed before doing.

This is such a hard thing for me to wrap my head around, not because I care about the people banned, but because I don't care about how people act or display themselves on the internet. I don't care to read every single point of this- I've had enough college classes for the day, but what I feel like is being encouraged is sensitivity. I have never, and will never, agree with internet sensitivity. I came from a community I was active on for quite a few years, and I still carry the same friends; the brutal, unrelenting assholes I call some of the best damn guys I know. I'm not advocating for total anarchy, I'm advocating for the fact people need to grow the fuck up and stop being sheltered on the internet.

I don't blame the admins for withholding evidence for community sake, but fuck, if that ain't some shit if I've ever heard it. The whole, "order in chaos" thing sounds feudalistic. Also, from reading, Supreme Court overruled the initial ruling of Brandenberg, stating that Ohio did not have the power to "constitutionally punish abstract advocacy of force or law violation." I don't think the comparison is even relatable- obviously you used it as a premise rather than an idea, but still. In my honest opinion, this level of grip is a vice I just can't stand in communities.

Also, the use of quotes to place yourself over ideas to justify actions is irritating, but that's just a personal thing. As the great C. S. Lewis once said, "An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason."  Maybe I'll toss this in here too to make people believe me, "All explanations tend to be self-serving." - Marty Rubin

About three of these bans I can understand, but can't help but hate the pike placed on them. From what I see, actively going out to target someone does not equal disagreeing with them, no matter how far you place your foot forward. I get it, we can't see all the details, so prepare for us to talk about what we can see rather than what we're told to trust you guys on.

As an avid WoW and League player, I suppose I've developed an internet callus most haven't. As said from a genius man in a YouTube comment, "Some people wouldn't survive three minutes in a Modern Warfare 2 lobby."

We were not trying to make targeting someone = disagreeing with them. It's fine to disagree, fully. But to go out of your way to put someone down for their opinion or start drama and disputes over it, on staff apps, or similar, when everyone knows that is not the place to do so, is where that originated from. It's not about opinions being disagreed with, or having an opinion, but about how you convey your disagreeance. It is OKAY TO DISAGREE. Nothing wrong with that, at all! But to blatantly attack someone for disagreeing, and making them fear to even post opinions, is the issue. This is something that happened repetitively.

Part of me wants to take half my night and tear into this, just rip it to shreds like I've done with everything else (respectfully and with a clear and concise message, of course).

Part of me just doesn't think it's worth it.

Will I run the risk of being labeled "part of the toxic hive mind" for having such a strong, dissenting opinion, despite what was said? There's a chance.

Why worry about that when I can be labeled part of it with a simple...

-1.

Just for disagreeing, it doesn't make you toxic, or part of a hivemind, and this is part of the issue we're having. It's not about disagreeing as I told stiffler. It's about how you handle your dissagreeance. To attack someone for disagreeing is wrong. Which happened multiple times over many months. It's okay to disagree with us. Not everyone is going to like what we did or us. That's fine. We understand that. Thank you for your input, i personally appreciate it.

I never said I didnt do anything wrong. So calm down there trying to act all big and mighty claiming WE wont admit our faults. Just because you guys made a long wall of text comparing this community to big life events (disrespectful in some ways and just total horseshit) doesnt make you right. Why would we waste our times making an unban for a incompetently ran community anyways. Others are afraid to say, but hell, I dont got nothing to lose so I mean. *shrug* Have fun playing Tiananmen Square on your gmod server, considering you like to compare it to historical events and massacres.

I will say on a few occasions you refused to admit fault, and did state you didn't do anything to deserve a ban, kicks, etc. We weren't using real life events to make us right, but to give more insight. They weren't supposed to be taken as literal comparisons, we didn't really expect anyone to do so, honest to god. lol. Like this is online, common sense it's not a literal bombing/court case/etc. It kind of went over everyone's heads what we meant by these, and that's fine. As long as some of you understand, that we mean it as in points of comparison, and not >LITERALLY<.

---

Since I had a slight part in this all I can say is that I'm sorry. I was friends with everyone who got banned, and was involved in this "hivemind," but the thing is it wasn't a hivemind at all. We each had differing opinions, but were willing to defend those we cared about. While some may have taken it to larger lengths, I did not. With these bans you all essentially wiped out the last few reasons I even bothered to get on. I want to apologize to @HalfDemonLink and @"ritsuneru" all of the drama between us three I never intended to blow up as much as it did. Link, I valued our past friendship greatly, and Rits we were never really close, but I wish you two the best with your lives.

On another note, Laced Xanax was the best friend I've ever made on here. The amount of time and dedication he put into staffing on here is the best that I've ever seen. It baffles me that he was at one point being asked if he wanted admin, then a few weeks later gets banned. The server environment takes tolls on people, yes, but he was not heinous in any way. We all have our asshole moments, and realistically half of us should be banned considering the way we act.

The outcome of these bans has been something I've never seen, aside from the PH staff exodus of 2018. I know some of you may have read my previous forum post, but I am done with this community. I'm done with GMod, and perhaps gaming in general. College just started up and I want to better my life. I guess its a good thing you all pushed me away, was probably better for my health.

One thing that bothers, even though this isn't relevant to this post, is that the whole Mallakk situation that occurred at the beginning of this year only really got handled as of last month. That shows to me that I was never a valued staff member, or member of the community. After all the time and tears I invested on here, I feel no type of return or gratitude, not that I care anymore, but still.

This place was at one point like a home to me, but like many people do in their lives, it's time to move on. Thank you for everything you all have done for me, but it is also my time to go permanently. I will not be posting anything on the forums probably ever again, I'm deleting Discord and maybe steam. I'm just done. I'm drained and exhausted.

I guess this is goodbye.. for good.. go ahead and perm ban me on the server

For meme's sake and one last time,

Ding dong, peace out

You may not believe me but you hold a special place in my heart and I do treasure you. I'll ban you, but only for a minute with a loving message, though I'm sure you do not want it. I'm sorry we have made this place feel like this for you. Genuinely, from the bottom of my heart..

[Foxka]

[quote pid='67418' dateline='1567822386']

As one of the people involved in this whole shebang I still do not approve of you guys opting for full community bans, without warning to some, and pretending as if it's some sort of public display of shame towards these individuals to be forced to essentially beg for forgiveness in order to be unbanned. None of us wanted this. And before being accused of being a part of this so called "hivemind" I think it's extremely important to let people know that theres maybe 1 or 2 people that were banned that I can even stand talking to sometimes. No one was pushing me to have different opinions that what I truly felt. 

My biggest concern here is that you (the admins) are comparing community bans to that of dropping the fucking nukes on japan. That is incredibly disrespectful and uncalled for, this is not that extreme. You guys are in charge of running a community, not executing millions of people.

While gabe touched on the multiple groups formed, or as I call them, cliques,  how are you going to assess and determine which ones are toxic and which ones are just people being close? Since I'm one of the people you could consider too afraid to speak up for myself due to backlash, I'm gonna lay it down here now and point out that even while I was staff myself, the mods and admins will treat you like crap if you are not upper staff. I have barely acted differently since resigning yet now I am being dumpstered by people o thought were friendly. There is too much of a mob mentality still after this ban wave. Too many things are being turned away from with blind eyes that others would be decimated for. 


Anyways this is the worst thing I've ever written and sorry for that. I am still a salty boy.

>snip< On top of this, we fully explained the lack of warnings (while for some it may have helped) if you had fully read, which it's obvious you didn't, sorry, the reason for not individually warning was the multiple posts, and threads and threads and posts made addressing toxic behavior, and many of these people were at the forefront for helping us combat it, but refused to acknowledge it their selves. I must also say the nukes thing was taken too literal on your part, we don't mean that this is literally a nuke drop, but reference the similarities. Not literalness?? As for the determination of cliques etc, it's extremely obvious when people are cliques and to the point they "gang" up together. I cannot and will not speak for TTT but if anyone on PH has felt like I was treating them like shit, I would prefer they come and tell me. Most of them tell me when I'm being an absolute bitch and that's how I prefer it. Keeping communication like that open, instead of closed, is so SO important. As for the rest of the incidents, i personally have not been reported to more than these people (that i can remember) so if there's more, and you're comfortable, as I told laced, please message me. I will personally look into it.




ritsuneru
[quote pid='67403' dateline='1567819674']
>snip<
[/quote]
I will say on a few occasions you refused to admit fault, and did state you didn't do anything to deserve a ban, kicks, etc. We weren't using real life events to make us right, but to give more insight. They weren't supposed to be taken as literal comparisons, we didn't really expect anyone to do so, honest to god. lol. Like this is online, common sense it's not a literal bombing/court case/etc. It kind of went over everyone's heads what we meant by these *snip*
[/quote]


Gonna keep this brief

These are exactly the inflammatory responses that make me afraid to speak up against admins. We get passive aggressive responses like this. You made an assumption that I didnt read the whole post (which I did) and then act like I'm a fucking retard for calling out the allusion >which YOU agreed on using< as being inappropriate and disrespectful. You claim to ask if you're treating someone like shit that they tell you, but I'm honestly not convinced you wont take screenshots of this open communication to use as evidence to silence that person. If you dont want something taken literally do not use it as a comparison, and do not mock people for being upset that you did.

This is the kind of response that convinces me you dont actually care about the community but more so about being "right" in this situation. This is why I am convinced I should be afraid to publicly criticize upper staff.

[Mother Nuru.]

[quote pid='67418' dateline='1567822386']

As one of the people involved in this whole shebang I still do not approve of you guys opting for full community bans, without warning to some, and pretending as if it's some sort of public display of shame towards these individuals to be forced to essentially beg for forgiveness in order to be unbanned. None of us wanted this. And before being accused of being a part of this so called "hivemind" I think it's extremely important to let people know that theres maybe 1 or 2 people that were banned that I can even stand talking to sometimes. No one was pushing me to have different opinions that what I truly felt. 

My biggest concern here is that you (the admins) are comparing community bans to that of dropping the fucking nukes on japan. That is incredibly disrespectful and uncalled for, this is not that extreme. You guys are in charge of running a community, not executing millions of people.

While gabe touched on the multiple groups formed, or as I call them, cliques,  how are you going to assess and determine which ones are toxic and which ones are just people being close? Since I'm one of the people you could consider too afraid to speak up for myself due to backlash, I'm gonna lay it down here now and point out that even while I was staff myself, the mods and admins will treat you like crap if you are not upper staff. I have barely acted differently since resigning yet now I am being dumpstered by people o thought were friendly. There is too much of a mob mentality still after this ban wave. Too many things are being turned away from with blind eyes that others would be decimated for. 


Anyways this is the worst thing I've ever written and sorry for that. I am still a salty boy.

>snip< On top of this, we fully explained the lack of warnings (while for some it may have helped) if you had fully read, which it's obvious you didn't, sorry, the reason for not individually warning was the multiple posts, and threads and threads and posts made addressing toxic behavior, and many of these people were at the forefront for helping us combat it, but refused to acknowledge it their selves. I must also say the nukes thing was taken too literal on your part, we don't mean that this is literally a nuke drop, but reference the similarities. Not literalness?? As for the determination of cliques etc, it's extremely obvious when people are cliques and to the point they "gang" up together. I cannot and will not speak for TTT but if anyone on PH has felt like I was treating them like shit, I would prefer they come and tell me. Most of them tell me when I'm being an absolute bitch and that's how I prefer it. Keeping communication like that open, instead of closed, is so SO important. As for the rest of the incidents, i personally have not been reported to more than these people (that i can remember) so if there's more, and you're comfortable, as I told laced, please message me. I will personally look into it.




ritsuneru
[quote pid='67403' dateline='1567819674']
>snip<

I will say on a few occasions you refused to admit fault, and did state you didn't do anything to deserve a ban, kicks, etc. We weren't using real life events to make us right, but to give more insight. They weren't supposed to be taken as literal comparisons, we didn't really expect anyone to do so, honest to god. lol. Like this is online, common sense it's not a literal bombing/court case/etc. It kind of went over everyone's heads what we meant by these *snip*
[/quote]


Gonna keep this brief

These are exactly the inflammatory responses that make me afraid to speak up against admins. We get passive aggressive responses like this. You made an assumption that I didnt read the whole post (which I did) and then act like I'm a fucking retard for calling out the allusion >which YOU agreed on using< as being inappropriate and disrespectful. You claim to ask if you're treating someone like shit that they tell you, but I'm honestly not convinced you wont take screenshots of this open communication to use as evidence to silence that person. If you dont want something taken literally do not use it as a comparison, and do not mock people for being upset that you did.

This is the kind of response that convinces me you dont actually care about the community but more so about being "right" in this situation. This is why I am convinced I should be afraid to publicly criticize upper staff.
[/quote]

I didn't mean for that to come off as passive aggressive honestly. So I'm sorry it did. I'm being honest when I ask for people to call me on my shit. I can't fix it if I don't know I'm doing it. I wasn't trying to mock, just express that I genuinely didn't think someone would take it literal. I'm sorry.