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+--- Thread: Rule Clarification/Logistics Question (/showthread.php?tid=4447)
Rule Clarification/Logistics Question - ReThink - 05-18-2018
Situation: (this is from something that happened last night)
- I see a player emerge from a corridor
- I pass said player
- I find an un-I’d,d body at entrance to corridor at the bottom of the stairs (several seconds later)
- I ID the body, it is a detective
- I call KOS on Player, now quite far away at this point
- I chase and kill player
- I am reported, I give explanation from the rules stating that passing Unid is KOS
- I am slain because, and I quote, “the killcam doesn’t go back far enough so I can’t prove you’re innocent”
It’s neither my fault or my problem that the mod tools don’t go back far enough to view what happened, and it shouldn’t be the players responsibility to prove their innocence. That’s backwards as fuck.
Slays are for people who don’t follow the rules, yet I was slain for following them because the mod was unable to view it.
How is this a fair precedent? Using this information I can just delay fights until I know the killcam can’t view it and then report people who kill me; then the killcam won’t “prove their innocence” and I can have them slain. Explain how this makes any sense. You can’t record half of what happened and claim it’s the full truth, that’s bullshit.
I was understandably ornery towards the staff member, @matt_st3 (Strongrule) because this is the sort of bullshit that is incredibly frustrating; to be slain when following the rules to the letter.
Edit: not to mention that i even provided the location and timeframe of when it happened to the staff.
Not to mention that the staff member could have checked the logs for my ID time of the body, the time of me calling the KOS, and counted backwards from the kill and would see that it lined up with when I said he passed it.
RE: Rule Clarification/Logistics Question - The Dutch Problem - 05-18-2018
The simple thing is, we should be enforcing the innocent till proven guilty rule. As such with no proof of you doing so you shouldn't have been slain. Because without proof of the thing that may or may not have happened, you cannot slay people for lack of proof... No proof, no slay.
RE: Rule Clarification/Logistics Question - Traitor Plays - 05-18-2018
(05-18-2018, 07:20 AM)King Tiger Ace Fasda22 Wrote: The simple thing is, we should be enforcing the innocent till proven guilty rule. As such with no proof of you doing so you shouldn't have been slain. Because without proof of the thing that may or may not have happened, you cannot slay people for lack of proof... No proof, no slay.
I agree 100%.
On another note "I was understandably ornery towards the staff member, @matt_st3 (Strongrule) because this is the sort of bullshit that is incredibly frustrating; to be slain when following the rules to the letter." Its never ok to flame or attack another player/staff at any point. If you thought it was wrong you should have came straight here or to another mod/admin.
RE: Rule Clarification/Logistics Question - matt_st3 (Strongrule) - 05-18-2018
The "called a kos" is an addition to the story that wasn't there last night for one
For another, you killed him across the map for "passing an unid body" without any way of placing him near the body because of a large time difference. If a kos had been called, we cannot very accurately time it, so I would have to side with you that it was at that time and administer no slay. I did not hear or find a kos.
Passing an unid body is a difficult thing to prove if outside of the camera time. To do so I go through other death scenes of other kills and spectate the said area. I could tell from logs that you id the body what 30 seconds before the kill. It also happens the body was mine, and combined with Boat being nowhere in the logs there and not being there to my knowledge of time of death, @Boat was innocent until proven guilty of passing an unid. I let you discuss it with me until you left in case you could convince me I was wrong.
If a Kos was called I would have enough info on your side to side with you, as it would suggest said event happened. Without it, all I have to see is you kill boat without any body being close.
Edit: I may have pics to help after work
RE: Rule Clarification/Logistics Question - ReThink - 05-18-2018
(05-18-2018, 08:01 AM)matt_st3 (Strongrule) Wrote: The "called a kos" is an addition to the story that wasn't there last night for one
For another, you killed him across the map for "passing an unid body" without any way of placing him near the body because of a large time difference. If a kos had been called, we cannot very accurately time it, so I would have to side with you that it was at that time and administer no slay. I did not hear or find a kos.
Passing an unid body is a difficult thing to prove if outside of the camera time. To do so I go through other death scenes of other kills and spectate the said area. I could tell from logs that you id the body what 30 seconds before the kill. It also happens the body was mine, and combined with Boat being nowhere in the logs there and not being there to my knowledge of time of death, @Boat was innocent until proven guilty of passing an unid. I let you discuss it with me until you left in case you could convince me I was wrong.
If a Kos was called I would have enough info on your side to side with you, as it would suggest said event happened. Without it, all I have to see is you kill boat without any body being close.
Edit: I may have pics to help after work
I mean, it’s in text chat so it’ll be in past logs, right? I said something to the effect of “uh.. KOS boat”.
If chat is saved in the archives everyone can acces then I can find it later today.
I do apologize for being rude, that was unnecessary. It was just incredibly frustrating that I had to prove something that I shouldn’t have to overtop the screeching of 32 people in voice chat, so the bit I could type couldn’t respond fast enough to both of you talking at once.
(05-18-2018, 07:43 AM)Traitor Wrote:(05-18-2018, 07:20 AM)King Tiger Ace Fasda22 Wrote: The simple thing is, we should be enforcing the innocent till proven guilty rule. As such with no proof of you doing so you shouldn't have been slain. Because without proof of the thing that may or may not have happened, you cannot slay people for lack of proof... No proof, no slay.
I agree 100%.
On another note "I was understandably ornery towards the staff member, @matt_st3 (Strongrule) because this is the sort of bullshit that is incredibly frustrating; to be slain when following the rules to the letter." Its never ok to flame or attack another player/staff at any point. If you thought it was wrong you should have came straight here or to another mod/admin.
You’re totally right. I was frustrated that I wasn’t given enough time to explain myself and gather proof; the map was ending and the slay was already applied before I could show anything that proved my case.
(05-18-2018, 07:20 AM)King Tiger Ace Fasda22 Wrote: The simple thing is, we should be enforcing the innocent till proven guilty rule. As such with no proof of you doing so you shouldn't have been slain. Because without proof of the thing that may or may not have happened, you cannot slay people for lack of proof... No proof, no slay.
That is almost verbatim what I said at the time. I was told “the proof is that you killed him, but no evidence of him walking by the body”. Which of course there wouldn’t be if the mod recording tool doesn’t go back far enough in time. I basically was fighting to prove I followed the rules, which was very frustrating.
RE: Rule Clarification/Logistics Question - matt_st3 (Strongrule) - 05-18-2018
Basically what I'm getting at is the report is saying that he was killed without reason, and in my search I could find no proof of reason. Ideally he would have forgiven, but by pressing the report it's there or not there, and I couldn't find it. Again, I could not find a kos so I didn't have that to go off of. Normally I'll close the report because that suggests it did happen, if I can't trick around the spectate to let me see.
Logs don't show chat I believe. So far as I'm aware it based on the users end.
Edit: in the event I don't slay him, then he believes he was rdmd and I justified it without proof. From the Inno till guilty rule, that could apply that boat is innocent of passing an unid, which I can't find
Also, the slay was for "no body near staircase", which is referring to the staircase you killed him at, afterwards you stated the other staircase and I tried finding what you meant.
If it is enforced not to slay, then "you passed and unid earlier" becomes a get out of jail free card
RE: Rule Clarification/Logistics Question - EpicGuy - 05-18-2018
I don't understand what's going on here. Matt, you said you checked the other death scenes, "To do so I go through other death scenes of other kills and spectate the said area." Ok. What did you see? If you went to the other death scenes and saw that Boat didn't pass an unID'd body, then what's the big deal? The slay was valid. If you did see that Boat passed an unID'd body, then you made a mistake.
Like Matt said, I would have gone to a death scene close to the time when you ID'd the body, and moved over to where the unID'd body was. If Boat walked over an unID'd body, Rethink isn't slain. If Boat walked over an ID'd body, then slay Rethink.
Boat doesn't need to be near your body when you die for him to pass an unID'd body. He just needs to pass an unID'd body.
Saying that someone passed an unID'd body isn't a "get out of jail free card", as much as it is tried to be used as one. It's very easy to see if someone passed an unID'd body... check the death scene.
Logs don't save chat. Maybe Dinkleberg or DaKody can access old chat logs, but us commoners can't. If you don't screenshot it, once you disconnect it's gone.
TL;DR: If there's no evidence to say that Boat did or did not pass an unID'd body, then no slay should have been given.
RE: Rule Clarification/Logistics Question - ♥Chloe♥ - 05-18-2018
Unless you physically saw him pass the unidentified body you cannot call a Kos. You can sus him sure but you dont have proof that he knowingly walked past it.
RE: Rule Clarification/Logistics Question - matt_st3 (Strongrule) - 05-18-2018
In the logs I cannot find boat passing the unid or really even near it. Therefore I applied the slay as no where can I see boat near said unid (or even an unid otherwise on that half of the map).
Perhaps you saw noire? He's the one that killed me (the unid)
RE: Rule Clarification/Logistics Question - ReThink - 05-18-2018
(05-18-2018, 10:00 AM)Foxka Wrote: Unless you physically saw him pass the unidentified body you cannot call a Kos. You can sus him sure but you dont have proof that he knowingly walked past it.
I mean, that’s not true. If he rounds the corner passing me, and when 1-3 seconds later I round it and see the body in such a location that nobody could pass it but him, it follows that only he would have passed it and therefore is KOS. Because he either saw the body and ignored it or was the killer, and both are KOS.
(05-18-2018, 10:13 AM)matt_st3 (Strongrule) Wrote: In the logs I cannot find boat passing the unid or really even near it. Therefore I applied the slay as no where can I see boat near said unid (or even an unid otherwise on that half of the map).
Perhaps you saw noire? He's the one that killed me (the unid)
I’m not sure what logs would have “passing the Unid”, unless you have access to something I don’t. And I don’t know anything about noire, I just know I almost literally ran into boat rounding the corridor/stairwell entrance that the body was behind.