[Eluviate]

Idk if I'm remembered at all here as I have been inactive for like 4 years, but imo from looking @ the clips I don't think there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Fofab is cheating.

Clip timings:

The clips provided are all from 9 months ago recorded in around a 1 week period. Why ban him now? Why not provide more recent/other clips? Are these the most damning clips? I personally feel that the evidence required to ban someone with as much game knowledge and time played as Fofab would have to be a lot as it would be very easy to cherry pick a couple games which make him look the most cheatery (I don't think this was done here, but I would still like to make this point). 

Trash Bags:

One thing that I haven't seen anyone else say about video #3 is that he actually looks at these trashbags in a similar way at around 3:00 into the video (he didnt try and shoot his nade though). It may just be confirmation bias because we know that matt was there that time.

Cigarette Kill:
Am I crazy or is that a common spot? Hiding as the smallest object possible is very common and so its very likely that people hide there. Is it not probable for Fofab (the guy who has 23 weeks on the server) to either memorize the # of cigarettes on each level or notice something wrong with their rotations?

Outperforming cheaters/ghosters:

I would like to add that

Outperforming cheaters/ghosters 100% doable. At a high level knowing where people like to hide combined with Fofab's insane pattern recognition will beat the slower game of telephone which ghosters do and the cheaters who try and hide their behavior.

Abdel back in the day consistently warm/slay/tp me out of map so that I would have less of an impact on the game when a cheater/ghoster joined for the same reason.

Other things Fofab does which imo supports innocence:

I can only speak for myself here, but I would typically follow some kind of predefined path at the start of each round which I believed would give me the highest likelihood of running into props. On the gas station map we can see that his first ~2 minutes are the same every time. 

Quick check outside (~30s - 1min) -> Inside store (~30s) -> Bathroom/Tv Room/Kitchen (~30s) -> Basement (~20s) -> Back outside

He generally follows this pattern every time, whereas a cheater might change their route depending on where people hid. Of course this doesnt prove him innocent or anything, but its something that I at least did as an "experienced" player myself and is something that I believe is the best strategy for being an optimal (non cheating) hunter.

Nading:

One other thing I would like to point out regarding him nading when being spectated, it seems like he generally does this after doing a full lap around the map and when there are only a few props remaining. He also nades in parts of the map where even experienced players are forced to check props manually which is tedious so nading isn't completely crazy.

Idk if you have the data but how often does he die nading without someone spectating? If its at a dramatically lower rate then maybe theres something, but I don't think the clips show anything statistically significant.

In defense of the ban:

I think its hard to differentiate a cheater from a high level prop hunt player, especially one who has so many hours. If Fofab hopped on an alt, and played the same way he does then he would be banned and would prob have his appeal denied no questions asked. However, if you take into account the fact that he has 4000 hours, and is basically the best dinks prop hunt player who has ever lived, there should be questions asked.

My overall opinion:

The clips provided, while perhaps could be seen as suspicious, are 20 minutes of his gameplay with 2-3 suspicious kills at most? I'm sure that for most people its not just those clips, but their personal experiences which played into their support for this ban, but from my understanding ph doesn't ban off of that. 

There should be more proof than this if you want to ban someone who has put 4000 hrs into ph imo.

[Super Milk Chan]

*snip*

I honestly didn't notice the date all the evidence was posted, this is a fantastic point.

[Dinomoto]

Whilst I thought initially that fofab was just good at the game, knowing that there is a dubious method to the madness taints my perception of them, however with the evidence provided it does feed into more of these low graphic settings rather than an actual cheat. So unban them.

[Slasheronic]

Making an absolute comeback (Eluviate told me stuff was happening and I have FOMO)

My Understanding After Reading/Watching Everything:

So from what I am understanding, Fofab was just recently banned for cheating despite the fact that the evidence provided to us are all 9 months?

I have 2 Questions:

- Why is this ban just happening now if the evidence and relevant discussion seems to have happened over half a year ago?
- Is all the evidence here the extent of it?

Timing of the evidence

Why are we only getting this after 9 months. 9 months is a long time that goes beyond a "Things got away from me" excuse. It just makes me question the validity of all of this. It not only confuses Fofab and forces them to go back months upon months in their files searching for any kind of counter-evidence they may have long deleted. On the other hand, it also just confuses me and that hurts. Frankly, I just want to know what happened in the meantime.

The Actual Evidence

I think the evidence says a lot. Does Fofab get some pretty wild kills? Yes, totally. Does Fofab have literally the most time on the server? YEA. This evidence is unfortunately extremely subjective and it is entirely plausible that someone with 4000+ hours on just this server could get away with these kills without cheating. Not to call people out but my friend Eluviate here was accused of cheating over and over in his prime alongside me. Was he? No, I have known him since middle school and have seen him play and get these numbers. Being that good is just possible. The evidence is just too subjective, one person sees cheating, another sees hours of practice and skill. I would just need more here to agree with this ban because you show me no actual GUI anomalies, no cheats, no aimbot proof, no esp ss etc.

Counter Argument (Devil's Advocate)

History has shown time and time again that those who are good at games and have the skill will still cheat. Like Eluviate said, if Fofab got on an alt and played like that, I would be calling them out as a cheater all the same. High level play and cheats can look very similar, I have watched too much footage of prophunt to know that.

Conclusion

Am I taking this too seriously? Yes 100%, I do not play here, I do not know why I am doing this. But frankly, this ban just doesn't work for me. If you had something more evidence wise, then maybe but this really just doesn't convince me. I still have an issue with the timeline and I can only subjectively give Fofab slack knowing their extensive skill and experience.

[Dildo Shwaggins]

I originally wasn't gonna comment but fuck it

Doesn't seem like enough evidence to be bannable based on cheating grounds- that would require some kind of really hard, clear cut evidence.

I get tryhards can ruin the experience for non-tryhard players but that's not grounds for a ban either, as annoying as such a playstyle can be

[Succubus Widdy]

Ultimately I was going to hold off on making another response but this where I am at.

A majority of the replies have pointed out just watching these videos alone isn't sufficient to press for a ban because:

     A) Graphics tweaks that are specific to base Garry's mod can't be a reason to levy a ban. Frame locking to bunny hop for example is just using a game mechanic that players use to achieve specific movement so this shouldn't be any different. Plus also we can't forget there are people who play on cheap Acer, Dell, and HP laptops and don't have the horsepower to run this game at full graphics and trying to rule ban that would open the door for hardware based discrimination.

     B) These videos that are posted could very likely just be the users pattern recognition. While I did see a handful of shots that raised my brow, there is also the fact that people who spend hours upon hours on the same maps can notice things like an extra vending machine or maybe 8 cigarette packs opposed to 7. People can study maps and take notes.

     C) A majority of people so far have spoken bringing up a lot of these points. Being a good player doesn't exactly disqualify you from being able to play. A good example is I have a friend who got banned from Dinkleberg's a few years back because a moderator assumed he was cheating based off of how sharp his shot was in Terror Town. If bans are made based off of cheating accusations, either a screenshot relay or a first-person speciation screen capture should be used as a basis to gauge the legitimacy of the plays.

With that being said I am going to -1 this ban. I appreciate the effort into trying to insure that fair and balanced game-play is achieved on the PH server but I don't think carrying out this ban would be appropriate or morally justifiable given the community responses, counter points, and the evidence being trust me bro...

With that being said I also redact anything I had said before as my outlook has changed.

[TDawg4]

Admin team has decided to go ahead and unban. (I) We are not prop hunt experts but taking in the input we have decided there is not enough here to maintain the ban.

Again I will say what I said in my other post. No one here is acting in bad faith. Gauging whether a really good player is cheating is extremely hard (muddy). We appreciate all the responses.