[frost]

The feedback he was given on the last appeal offer him the alternative to engage in the community or with people before making the next appeal, the intention of said feedback was not to benefit the community itself but rather benefit him and said credibility, if he was given that opportunity why wouldn't he partake on it and just go straight to the appeal again without adding anything relevant?

How is he supposed to engage in the community if he's limited to situations where he would feel compelled to speak up? If you read under this post, you'll see nothing but people talking about interactions with caribou with little to no respect for him changing. Their only argument is "I played with this guy, and I don't want to play with him". You expect someone to interact with people who lack interest, bring comfort, or trust anything he says? It's not a lack of opportunity; it's a lack of people wanting to interact with someone who has had months to change who they are.

Is almost as if, that lack of comfort and trust was a byproduct of a repeated pattern of behavior that got him banned not once but trice, and in the same topic, how are people expected to just "let it go" and allow a player that harrass them and show little to no respect multiple times? You expect people just to suck it up ? It is a lack people wanting to interact with someone who has had multiple (not just once) opportunities to change who they are just to repeat the same behavior

So then how would you expect him to engage in the feedback if nobody will accept that he changes. You're essentially giving him an impossible task and the only way he would be able to interact with anyone is if they talk to him first. It wouldn't be fair to ask him to put himself in an uncomfortable situation for the sake of reconciliation.  Caribou has taken accountability and apologized to multiple people in his past appeals, there's not much more he can do if you're just going to tell him to interact with people that want nothing to do with him.

How would you expect him to get unbanned if all the engagement and positive interactions he has are from his circle of friends, the whole point of him changing and making the appeal is showing he can engage or at least try to engage (making an appeal IS NOT engaging) with the people that are not fond of him, if its impossible to him to behave like a normal human being without harrasment or passive aggressive comments that's a (him) issue and not a community issue, the opportunity to engage is there, if he doesn't take it because he feels he's "compelled to" that's again a (him) issue, how are people to believe he's "changed" if all that there is to the table is:
1. I'm his friend and I'm okay, therefore he's okay 
2.Hes says he's sorry^3
3.Other people did worse 

The same exact arguments from the previous appeal with little to not evidence shown that he received and practiced the feedback he was given

He has already engaged with the people who aren't fond of him in his last appeal, he acknowledged his wrongdoings and took accountability for what he did and look where it got him. He's back at square one even after engaging with them. What difference would if make if he directly messaged them and showed what he already did in the last appeal. He's clearly behaving like a normal person and hasn't said any comments relating to harassment or any of the sort in any of his engagements on discord or the forums during his ban. It's not only the "circle of friends" who are saying to unban him, there are staff members and regulars on the server who are agreeing.

[Cimag]

How is he supposed to engage in the community if he's limited to situations where he would feel compelled to speak up? If you read under this post, you'll see nothing but people talking about interactions with caribou with little to no respect for him changing. Their only argument is "I played with this guy, and I don't want to play with him". You expect someone to interact with people who lack interest, bring comfort, or trust anything he says? It's not a lack of opportunity; it's a lack of people wanting to interact with someone who has had months to change who they are.

Is almost as if, that lack of comfort and trust was a byproduct of a repeated pattern of behavior that got him banned not once but trice, and in the same topic, how are people expected to just "let it go" and allow a player that harrass them and show little to no respect multiple times? You expect people just to suck it up ? It is a lack people wanting to interact with someone who has had multiple (not just once) opportunities to change who they are just to repeat the same behavior

So then how would you expect him to engage in the feedback if nobody will accept that he changes. You're essentially giving him an impossible task and the only way he would be able to interact with anyone is if they talk to him first. It wouldn't be fair to ask him to put himself in an uncomfortable situation for the sake of reconciliation.  Caribou has taken accountability and apologized to multiple people in his past appeals, there's not much more he can do if you're just going to tell him to interact with people that want nothing to do with him.

How would you expect him to get unbanned if all the engagement and positive interactions he has are from his circle of friends, the whole point of him changing and making the appeal is showing he can engage or at least try to engage (making an appeal IS NOT engaging) with the people that are not fond of him, if its impossible to him to behave like a normal human being without harrasment or passive aggressive comments that's a (him) issue and not a community issue, the opportunity to engage is there, if he doesn't take it because he feels he's "compelled to" that's again a (him) issue, how are people to believe he's "changed" if all that there is to the table is:
1. I'm his friend and I'm okay, therefore he's okay 
2.Hes says he's sorry^3
3.Other people did worse 

The same exact arguments from the previous appeal with little to not evidence shown that he received and practiced the feedback he was given

He has already engaged with the people who aren't fond of him in his last appeal, he acknowledged his wrongdoings and took accountability for what he did and look where it got him. He's back at square one even after engaging with them. What difference would if make if he directly messaged them and showed what he already did in the last appeal. He's clearly behaving like a normal person and hasn't said any comments relating to harassment or any of the sort in any of his engagements on discord or the forums during his ban. It's not only the "circle of friends" who are saying to unban him, there are staff members and regulars on the server who are agreeing.

At this point you are clearly running around the Rosie trying to dismisss his behavior as something little, the whole so called "engagement" in both of those appeals are "I did it cus I'm sad" "I did it but other player did it too' which are not a valid excuse here nor in any other place, you keep cherry picking "messaging people directly " as if it was the only alternative he was given, which clearly was not, he has had plethora of chances and time to show he has changed, and even without comparing him to any other ban his history speaks for itself, if you only take accountability when it suits you that isn't accountability that's just play pretend, even more so when this is your third time for something you said you were going to change in previous occasions that are well documented as well, and there are plethora of staff members and good ol' regulars on the server that are aware of this type of person and are disagreeing with his unban as well

[BGgamez YT]

In my most humble opinion I -1 this appeal due to the affects this would have on the community. If he does come back make him 2 points off another perma. This cannot continue, you must find another server to harass at this point caribou.

[frost]

Is almost as if, that lack of comfort and trust was a byproduct of a repeated pattern of behavior that got him banned not once but trice, and in the same topic, how are people expected to just "let it go" and allow a player that harrass them and show little to no respect multiple times? You expect people just to suck it up ? It is a lack people wanting to interact with someone who has had multiple (not just once) opportunities to change who they are just to repeat the same behavior

So then how would you expect him to engage in the feedback if nobody will accept that he changes. You're essentially giving him an impossible task and the only way he would be able to interact with anyone is if they talk to him first. It wouldn't be fair to ask him to put himself in an uncomfortable situation for the sake of reconciliation.  Caribou has taken accountability and apologized to multiple people in his past appeals, there's not much more he can do if you're just going to tell him to interact with people that want nothing to do with him.

How would you expect him to get unbanned if all the engagement and positive interactions he has are from his circle of friends, the whole point of him changing and making the appeal is showing he can engage or at least try to engage (making an appeal IS NOT engaging) with the people that are not fond of him, if its impossible to him to behave like a normal human being without harrasment or passive aggressive comments that's a (him) issue and not a community issue, the opportunity to engage is there, if he doesn't take it because he feels he's "compelled to" that's again a (him) issue, how are people to believe he's "changed" if all that there is to the table is:
1. I'm his friend and I'm okay, therefore he's okay 
2.Hes says he's sorry^3
3.Other people did worse 

The same exact arguments from the previous appeal with little to not evidence shown that he received and practiced the feedback he was given

He has already engaged with the people who aren't fond of him in his last appeal, he acknowledged his wrongdoings and took accountability for what he did and look where it got him. He's back at square one even after engaging with them. What difference would if make if he directly messaged them and showed what he already did in the last appeal. He's clearly behaving like a normal person and hasn't said any comments relating to harassment or any of the sort in any of his engagements on discord or the forums during his ban. It's not only the "circle of friends" who are saying to unban him, there are staff members and regulars on the server who are agreeing.

At this point you are clearly running around the Rosie trying to dismisss his behavior as something little, the whole so called "engagement" in both of those appeals are "I did it cus I'm sad" "I did it but other player did it too' which are not a valid excuse here nor in any other place, you keep cherry picking "messaging people directly " as if it was the only alternative he was given, which clearly was not, he has had plethora of chances and time to show he has changed, and even without comparing him to any other ban his history speaks for itself, if you only take accountability when it suits you that isn't accountability that's just play pretend, even more so when this is your third time for something you said you were going to change in previous occasions that are well documented as well, and there are plethora of staff members and good ol' regulars on the server that are aware of this type of person and are disagreeing with his unban as well

No where in any of my responses have I dismissed his behavior, I said he acknowledged what he did was wrong and apologized for it. If you can state another alternative other than messaging a person directly and apologizing for what you might have said in the past, I would love to hear it because from my perspective he only has that option as he isn't able to join the server to tell that person and if he does do it in the discord server it's going to seem like he's only doing it to "take accountability when it suits him". Yes, past behavior matters. But the whole reason the appeal process exists is to allow people to be re-evaluated over time not permanently written off. I know you're disagreeing with an unban, which I understand but you shouldn't twist it into a reason to shut the door on someone who is trying to return in good faith.

[Cimag]

So then how would you expect him to engage in the feedback if nobody will accept that he changes. You're essentially giving him an impossible task and the only way he would be able to interact with anyone is if they talk to him first. It wouldn't be fair to ask him to put himself in an uncomfortable situation for the sake of reconciliation.  Caribou has taken accountability and apologized to multiple people in his past appeals, there's not much more he can do if you're just going to tell him to interact with people that want nothing to do with him.

How would you expect him to get unbanned if all the engagement and positive interactions he has are from his circle of friends, the whole point of him changing and making the appeal is showing he can engage or at least try to engage (making an appeal IS NOT engaging) with the people that are not fond of him, if its impossible to him to behave like a normal human being without harrasment or passive aggressive comments that's a (him) issue and not a community issue, the opportunity to engage is there, if he doesn't take it because he feels he's "compelled to" that's again a (him) issue, how are people to believe he's "changed" if all that there is to the table is:
1. I'm his friend and I'm okay, therefore he's okay 
2.Hes says he's sorry^3
3.Other people did worse 

The same exact arguments from the previous appeal with little to not evidence shown that he received and practiced the feedback he was given

He has already engaged with the people who aren't fond of him in his last appeal, he acknowledged his wrongdoings and took accountability for what he did and look where it got him. He's back at square one even after engaging with them. What difference would if make if he directly messaged them and showed what he already did in the last appeal. He's clearly behaving like a normal person and hasn't said any comments relating to harassment or any of the sort in any of his engagements on discord or the forums during his ban. It's not only the "circle of friends" who are saying to unban him, there are staff members and regulars on the server who are agreeing.

At this point you are clearly running around the Rosie trying to dismisss his behavior as something little, the whole so called "engagement" in both of those appeals are "I did it cus I'm sad" "I did it but other player did it too' which are not a valid excuse here nor in any other place, you keep cherry picking "messaging people directly " as if it was the only alternative he was given, which clearly was not, he has had plethora of chances and time to show he has changed, and even without comparing him to any other ban his history speaks for itself, if you only take accountability when it suits you that isn't accountability that's just play pretend, even more so when this is your third time for something you said you were going to change in previous occasions that are well documented as well, and there are plethora of staff members and good ol' regulars on the server that are aware of this type of person and are disagreeing with his unban as well

No where in any of my responses have I dismissed his behavior, I said he acknowledged what he did was wrong and apologized for it. If you can state another alternative other than messaging a person directly and apologizing for what you might have said in the past, I would love to hear it because from my perspective he only has that option as he isn't able to join the server to tell that person and if he does do it in the discord server it's going to seem like he's only doing it to "take accountability when it suits him". Yes, past behavior matters. But the whole reason the appeal process exists is to allow people to be re-evaluated over time not permanently written off. I know you're disagreeing with an unban, which I understand but you shouldn't twist it into a reason to shut the door on someone who is trying to return in good faith.

More than 6 months he has had since the last appeal to engage with the community as chibil pointed out, said community is also available on discord, which he isn't banned from, is also a part of, and seems to have a lot of activity from time to time, yet, he didn't engage with it, not until now that the appeal is back up again, if you know of any other alternative to make people less hesitant to forgive a harasser for an over - evaluated behavior besides sharing a space with them (this being the in game server) I would love to hear it. I know you are aching for an unban but you shouldn't open the door to the abusive step dad just because "this time will be different"

[frost]

How would you expect him to get unbanned if all the engagement and positive interactions he has are from his circle of friends, the whole point of him changing and making the appeal is showing he can engage or at least try to engage (making an appeal IS NOT engaging) with the people that are not fond of him, if its impossible to him to behave like a normal human being without harrasment or passive aggressive comments that's a (him) issue and not a community issue, the opportunity to engage is there, if he doesn't take it because he feels he's "compelled to" that's again a (him) issue, how are people to believe he's "changed" if all that there is to the table is:
1. I'm his friend and I'm okay, therefore he's okay 
2.Hes says he's sorry^3
3.Other people did worse 

The same exact arguments from the previous appeal with little to not evidence shown that he received and practiced the feedback he was given

He has already engaged with the people who aren't fond of him in his last appeal, he acknowledged his wrongdoings and took accountability for what he did and look where it got him. He's back at square one even after engaging with them. What difference would if make if he directly messaged them and showed what he already did in the last appeal. He's clearly behaving like a normal person and hasn't said any comments relating to harassment or any of the sort in any of his engagements on discord or the forums during his ban. It's not only the "circle of friends" who are saying to unban him, there are staff members and regulars on the server who are agreeing.

At this point you are clearly running around the Rosie trying to dismisss his behavior as something little, the whole so called "engagement" in both of those appeals are "I did it cus I'm sad" "I did it but other player did it too' which are not a valid excuse here nor in any other place, you keep cherry picking "messaging people directly " as if it was the only alternative he was given, which clearly was not, he has had plethora of chances and time to show he has changed, and even without comparing him to any other ban his history speaks for itself, if you only take accountability when it suits you that isn't accountability that's just play pretend, even more so when this is your third time for something you said you were going to change in previous occasions that are well documented as well, and there are plethora of staff members and good ol' regulars on the server that are aware of this type of person and are disagreeing with his unban as well

No where in any of my responses have I dismissed his behavior, I said he acknowledged what he did was wrong and apologized for it. If you can state another alternative other than messaging a person directly and apologizing for what you might have said in the past, I would love to hear it because from my perspective he only has that option as he isn't able to join the server to tell that person and if he does do it in the discord server it's going to seem like he's only doing it to "take accountability when it suits him". Yes, past behavior matters. But the whole reason the appeal process exists is to allow people to be re-evaluated over time not permanently written off. I know you're disagreeing with an unban, which I understand but you shouldn't twist it into a reason to shut the door on someone who is trying to return in good faith.

More than 6 months he has had since the last appeal to engage with the community as chibil pointed out, said community is also available on discord, which he isn't banned from, is also a part of, and seems to have a lot of activity from time to time, yet, he didn't engage with it, not until now that the appeal is back up again, if you know of any other alternative to make people less hesitant to forgive a harasser for an over - evaluated behavior besides sharing a space with them (this being the in game server) I would love to hear it. I know you are aching for an unban but you shouldn't open the door to the abusive step dad just because "this time will be different"

You're just recycling the same points you had earlier, I already stated how people don't like caribou and therefore won't interact with him even though he's trying to show he has good faith. Saying "you shouldn't open the door to the abusive step dad" is not only inflammatory, it's a misrepresentation of caribou entirely. Yeah, he hasn't been active in the discord, but absence from a space doesn't inherently prove unwillingness to change. Some people don't re-engage because they assume they're not welcome, which if you look in the discord right now you will see in the ttt chat someone saying he shouldn't be welcomed back into the community. Why would he interact with someone like that? You're asking for change but it doesn't always look lke public performative engagment. People can change overtime quietly and with a structured appeal, which is happening right now.

[Cimag]

He has already engaged with the people who aren't fond of him in his last appeal, he acknowledged his wrongdoings and took accountability for what he did and look where it got him. He's back at square one even after engaging with them. What difference would if make if he directly messaged them and showed what he already did in the last appeal. He's clearly behaving like a normal person and hasn't said any comments relating to harassment or any of the sort in any of his engagements on discord or the forums during his ban. It's not only the "circle of friends" who are saying to unban him, there are staff members and regulars on the server who are agreeing.

At this point you are clearly running around the Rosie trying to dismisss his behavior as something little, the whole so called "engagement" in both of those appeals are "I did it cus I'm sad" "I did it but other player did it too' which are not a valid excuse here nor in any other place, you keep cherry picking "messaging people directly " as if it was the only alternative he was given, which clearly was not, he has had plethora of chances and time to show he has changed, and even without comparing him to any other ban his history speaks for itself, if you only take accountability when it suits you that isn't accountability that's just play pretend, even more so when this is your third time for something you said you were going to change in previous occasions that are well documented as well, and there are plethora of staff members and good ol' regulars on the server that are aware of this type of person and are disagreeing with his unban as well

No where in any of my responses have I dismissed his behavior, I said he acknowledged what he did was wrong and apologized for it. If you can state another alternative other than messaging a person directly and apologizing for what you might have said in the past, I would love to hear it because from my perspective he only has that option as he isn't able to join the server to tell that person and if he does do it in the discord server it's going to seem like he's only doing it to "take accountability when it suits him". Yes, past behavior matters. But the whole reason the appeal process exists is to allow people to be re-evaluated over time not permanently written off. I know you're disagreeing with an unban, which I understand but you shouldn't twist it into a reason to shut the door on someone who is trying to return in good faith.

More than 6 months he has had since the last appeal to engage with the community as chibil pointed out, said community is also available on discord, which he isn't banned from, is also a part of, and seems to have a lot of activity from time to time, yet, he didn't engage with it, not until now that the appeal is back up again, if you know of any other alternative to make people less hesitant to forgive a harasser for an over - evaluated behavior besides sharing a space with them (this being the in game server) I would love to hear it. I know you are aching for an unban but you shouldn't open the door to the abusive step dad just because "this time will be different"

You're just recycling the same points you had earlier, I already stated how people don't like caribou and therefore won't interact with him even though he's trying to show he has good faith. Saying "you shouldn't open the door to the abusive step dad" is not only inflammatory, it's a misrepresentation of caribou entirely. Yeah, he hasn't been active in the discord, but absence from a space doesn't inherently prove unwillingness to change. Some people don't re-engage because they assume they're not welcome, which if you look in the discord right now you will see in the ttt chat someone saying he shouldn't be welcomed back into the community. Why would he interact with someone like that? You're asking for change but it doesn't always look lke public performative engagment. People can change overtime quietly and with a structured appeal, which is happening right now.

And you are evading that he has had plethora of alternatives, I already stated as well that he isn't stuck on a fixated path, but has had always the choice the choose which path suits him best, and while yes, the comment is depicted as inflammatory is not a misrepresentation of character, not at all when the number 1 complain people have of him is none other than being inflammatory or  harasser as well, and absence from a space does show unwillingness to change when you have had plethora of time to do something and you didn't do anything, just to bring it up for an appeal saying "what spaces?" And yeah, discussion that is currently taking place after an appeal was made, which is only adds to the point that before this appeal there was zero to none engagement or willingness for the feedback he was given, and people can also pretend they've changed, which has happened overtime and time again, with the same structure, which is what's happening right now

[thaye]

b4 you say "le clique member" please keep in mind that I have never commented positively on a caribou appeal before; I've either been outright negative or remained neutral.

Caribou definitely has changed since I've known him, including since his last appeal. He's mellowed out a lot and made amends to a several people I know including myself; for a period of over 6 months last year he's had me muted and we had constant beef (and i mean real beef, we both constantly called each other shit i dont think i should or can describe on the forums), but know the biggest beef we have is when I don't drop him starlight shards in Nightreign (cause i fucking need them)

Anyway i'm going to +1 not only cause I think he has personally shown my the capacity for change, but also because I believe the interaction behind the most recent flaming warn was very borderline and very mild overall.

Also he stopped playing league.

[frost]

At this point you are clearly running around the Rosie trying to dismisss his behavior as something little, the whole so called "engagement" in both of those appeals are "I did it cus I'm sad" "I did it but other player did it too' which are not a valid excuse here nor in any other place, you keep cherry picking "messaging people directly " as if it was the only alternative he was given, which clearly was not, he has had plethora of chances and time to show he has changed, and even without comparing him to any other ban his history speaks for itself, if you only take accountability when it suits you that isn't accountability that's just play pretend, even more so when this is your third time for something you said you were going to change in previous occasions that are well documented as well, and there are plethora of staff members and good ol' regulars on the server that are aware of this type of person and are disagreeing with his unban as well

No where in any of my responses have I dismissed his behavior, I said he acknowledged what he did was wrong and apologized for it. If you can state another alternative other than messaging a person directly and apologizing for what you might have said in the past, I would love to hear it because from my perspective he only has that option as he isn't able to join the server to tell that person and if he does do it in the discord server it's going to seem like he's only doing it to "take accountability when it suits him". Yes, past behavior matters. But the whole reason the appeal process exists is to allow people to be re-evaluated over time not permanently written off. I know you're disagreeing with an unban, which I understand but you shouldn't twist it into a reason to shut the door on someone who is trying to return in good faith.

More than 6 months he has had since the last appeal to engage with the community as chibil pointed out, said community is also available on discord, which he isn't banned from, is also a part of, and seems to have a lot of activity from time to time, yet, he didn't engage with it, not until now that the appeal is back up again, if you know of any other alternative to make people less hesitant to forgive a harasser for an over - evaluated behavior besides sharing a space with them (this being the in game server) I would love to hear it. I know you are aching for an unban but you shouldn't open the door to the abusive step dad just because "this time will be different"

You're just recycling the same points you had earlier, I already stated how people don't like caribou and therefore won't interact with him even though he's trying to show he has good faith. Saying "you shouldn't open the door to the abusive step dad" is not only inflammatory, it's a misrepresentation of caribou entirely. Yeah, he hasn't been active in the discord, but absence from a space doesn't inherently prove unwillingness to change. Some people don't re-engage because they assume they're not welcome, which if you look in the discord right now you will see in the ttt chat someone saying he shouldn't be welcomed back into the community. Why would he interact with someone like that? You're asking for change but it doesn't always look lke public performative engagment. People can change overtime quietly and with a structured appeal, which is happening right now.

And you are evading that he has had plethora of alternatives, I already stated as well that he isn't stuck on a fixated path, but has had always the choice the choose which path suits him best, and while yes, the comment is depicted as inflammatory is not a misrepresentation of character, not at all when the number 1 complain people have of him is none other than being inflammatory or  harasser as well, and absence from a space does show unwillingness to change when you have had plethora of time to do something and you didn't do anything, just to bring it up for an appeal saying "what spaces?" And yeah, discussion that is currently taking place after an appeal was made, which is only adds to the point that before this appeal there was zero to none engagement or willingness for the feedback he was given, and people can also pretend they've changed, which has happened overtime and time again, with the same structure, which is what's happening right now

You've clearly laid out your perspective, and I respect the fact that you're standing up for what you believe is right. But I want to clarify that I'm not evading the issue, I'm just not drawing the same conclusions from the same facts. Yes, he had the option to engage earlier, and yes he didn't take it that's fair criticism. But I don't think a lack of visible engagement always equals unwillingness to change. Sometimes people don't know how to re-enter a space they were removed from without it being seen as intrusive or performative. That doesn't excuse past behavior, it just complicates how we interpret silence. You're right, people can pretend to change. But if we're going to have a section where people can appeal, you need to evaluate the appeals on their merit not based on fear of repetition or worst-case projections. Otherwise, we're gatekeeping based on sentiment.

[3mb3ry]

im gonna +1 this based on how he responded on his last appeal. it does seem like he has put some effort in changing but also if he hasn't, as other people have also noted, we can just ban him for a much longer period than a year. i will say its hard to trust most of the friends vouching for him as a lot of them have always done so even when his behavior was obviously not aligned with the praise they'd give. this should be the last chance given for a while but i hope it turns out to be a positive change and maybe surprise those doubting it.