[Love4puppys]

[00:07] theblandbanana [traitor] has killed nico [innocent] with AWP

high sus theblandbanana

on topic, can anyone confirm how many reports were made and kept? if there were only three and one was invalid, then the ban would be invalid

           

[mistadobalina]

Ingame Name: frost

SteamID: STEAM_1:0:484982973

Who Banned You: Virunas

Reason For Ban: Mass RDM

Length of Ban: Permanent

Reason for Admins to Unban: 
After less than a week of thinking it over and giving myself a break from TTT, I decided today was best for me to create this ban appeal that way it isn't created with the emotions I carried the days following the ban. I was in the wrong for massing and I do apologize to anyone who was affected by my lack of judgment. I have read over the rules multiple times while I have been banned and believe a permanent ban on a player who has never been banned for mass before is above what should have been handed to me. Although it was intentional, I had no malicious intent with my actions.

For context, I was on eclipse and killed 5 innocents and 1 traitor in overtime as I grew tired of the constant delay that occurs more often than not. I would like to also point out that the last traitor was by definition "delaying" as they had only gotten 1 kill within 6 minutes due to a c4 which was placed for 2 minutes. As I started to kill people, the traitor while near me decided to run away and hide in a compartment as they "were scared I was going to rdm them". In order for me to find them, I had to buy a radar or else they would've stayed in the same area until the round ended. Not only were they intentional delaying by not killing any innocents after their c4 went off, but they also refused to play their given role properly with the excuse of "drinking/wanting to get drunk." 

I would also like to clear up a comment I saw a couple days after my ban. "did frost even try to contact staff?" In my eyes, I shouldn't need to contact anyone in this situation. As a regular player, I don't think staff would want me telling them to do their job as they were as staff are chosen to reinforce rules. Even if I were to contact staff, there has been a severe lack of players being punished for delaying. If players aren't being punished for a rule set for all players, more players will start to do it which has been happening more on the server. Although a ban was justified because of my actions, I don't believe a ban on par with cheaters is justifiable.

Have you been banned before:
3 times, 2 karma bans (through crowbar battling pancakes), 1 from last year.

+1 to unban, I was the only Inno that was killed by Jack, and it was when I was in the detective room waiting for an EPOCH. The strawman argument being made that the actions were malicious because 6 players were killed is actually so lame and is a bit shameful; however, I do understand that there needs to be devil's advocate for this type of situation, but the FACT IS, that only three players reported, ONE of those reports is INVALID, and another wanting to be forgiven after the fact (Boombox wanting to forgive). The argument being made that Frost deserves a harsher punishment because they are a regular should equally be applied to Jack, being a test-mod, and dishing out a slay for delay is not enough, as Jack should know the rules and values of the server EVEN MORE SO than a regular. Stop thinking this way, it's dumb. People make mistakes. Punishing a regular more harshly is like cutting off the hand of a seasoned chef for dropping a knife while only giving scolding to a first-time cook. Familiarity isn't a crime, and it shouldn't cost more flesh. We are a community, for heaven's sake, and multiple members have given this post a +1 because they know Frost isn't a troll, minge, and didn't do it out of malicious intent. This is what it means to be a member of a community.

I will REITERATE: 
 
“The delay shouldn’t be considered in the unban discussion.” - This is such a rigid and context-blind take. Saying motive doesn't matter is like saying a person who steals bread to feed their kid should be punished the same as someone who steals for fun. 

“Being a regular makes it worse.” - This is not discipline, this is resentment disguised as fairness. A student who normally gets A's should be expelled for cheating once? While a failing student should just get detention? Grow up. Ignoring basic ideas of reputation and reform is ridiculous. 

“It wasn’t malicious… but it was malicious because it was intentional.” - Simply an overly simplistic view that misrepresents what malicious means. Grow up, not all intentional acts are malicious; that is why intent and motive are separate factors in a moral and legal system. 

"Punishment must be harsh to be a deterrent.”  Someone parks one inch outside of the lines, and they get their car impounded. Would it make them better parkers? Grow up, it would make people afraid and unwilling to park at all. 

"You’re not required to contact staff, but you really should, and kinda failed by not doing so." - "You're not wrong, but you KINDA are." just creates a no-win situation and judges someone for not doing something they weren't obligated to do. This is just social entrapment disguised as politeness.

"Ban should stay, just not permanent." - This is like a prosecutor arguing for life imprisonment and then just ending the speech with "So maybe just probation." 

Can we think for a second? Unban Frost, it's insane that they haven't been unbanned when you have MULTIPLE people from the situation, TWO who did the reports saying they should be unbanned.

[Dinomoto]

[00:07] theblandbanana [traitor] has killed nico [innocent] with AWP

high sus theblandbanana

on topic, can anyone confirm how many reports were made and kept? if there were only three and one was invalid, then the ban would be invalid

Is there a way of staff seeing old reports, or is it just old logs?

[Rox5tar01]

Snippity

Snip snip

Wow... so you never quoted my message directly, but this entire post is just... something. For someone who's talking about straw-man arguments (that's not what that was, by the way), your idea of countering a straw-man argument is to instead present a straw-man argument yourself?

(Since you seem a bit confused, lets talk about it. A Straw-man argument is argument/debate fallacy where you misinterpret, misrepresent or otherwise modify an argument and then  argue against that modified point. You claim my straw-man was "that the actions were malicious because 6 players were killed", however you left out the key word in that entire point: INTENTIONAL. You took my argument, misrepresented it by leaving out the key point there and then argued against it. Thus, you have now presented a straw-man argument. Don't worry, this isn't the only time you do this. Maybe it isn't the best idea to accuse someone of debate fallacies when that person has participated and won multiple debate competitions, just saying.)

Multiple times, you misconstrued what I say to present multiple narratives that I neither said nor support. I understand if you may not fully agree with what I am saying, but claiming I am saying something when I'm not is simply not okay. I was really tempted to not reply at all, but I think I'm just going to correct you and leave it at that. Let's begin.

1. Regarding the reports, there is discussion behind the scenes as to whether or not Jack's report was a valid slay, and a conclusion on this will likely accompany the appeal result. The Boombox report however, was kept on Frost. While there was intention to forgive it after Boombox had learned that it was going to result in a perma, it was not communicated in a timely manner to staff that they wanted to retroactively forgive it. There is some wiggle-room regarding retroactive forgiveness, but it was not communicated properly until after the ban was delivered and there usually is a bit of a short amount of time a person has to forgive someone before punishment is given. On a side note, there is at least one additional player who has stated that they wanted to report but was not able to.

2. I do believe that Jack should have received a slay for delay, but at the same point Warns for Delay are only usually reserved for people who are intentionally stalling, vs those who are playing poorly and/or slowly. I wasn't there and thus I can't 100% say for certain what I would have done, but from the sounds of it a slay would have been more than sufficient in my own opinion.

3. I don't believe the motive (delay) regarding the mass matters, and thus shouldn't be included in the conversation, because I don't believe the motive in any way excuses or justifies the action in any sense. I essentially hold the motivation of the mass to the same effect as "because I felt like it". You may disagree, but this is my belief.

4. I don't believe the example you gave is really a fair comparison. Let's present it like this, with direct comparisons:
I believe a student in the 10th grade (regular) who cheats on a assignment (commits a rule violation, in this case a mass) should receive less forgiveness than a student in kindergarten (guest), because unlike the kindergartner the 10th grader should understand the exceptions given to them due to having spent more time in school (on the server). I also don't think a person should be expelled (perma banned) for cheating (Mass RDM) once, so that's not a super fair comparison either.

5. Malicious is defined by Merriam Webster as "having or showing a desire to cause harm to someone". These were not accidental or unintentional RDMs, but rather these RDMs were 100% intentional. Frost did have desire to cause harm in this case, which can be seen by Frost willingly causing harm (and subsequent death) to 6 other players. In this case, intentional and malicious go hand in hand. Even if Frost had external motives (I've established that I don't believe the motive of delay justifies the action), the RDMs were still intentional.

6. I didn't say that a "Punishment must be harsh to be a deterrent" (what's the point of you having quotes if you aren't gonna bother actually quoting me?), but rather that in this one specific case mass RDM has a higher punishment to act as a deterrent. Also, a mass isn't a case of one inch outside the line, this is more of parking and taking up multiple spaces worth.

7. I guess I need to re-explain this because it was apparently just too complex of an explanation. I DON'T believe Frost is in the wrong for not speaking up against the delay. I DON'T believe Frost "failed" by not doing so. Frost is NOT obligated to speak up about issues that they see. I DO believe that people in general should speak up about issues they see or have, however players are NOT required to do this. I DON'T believe Frost is in the wrong for anything regarding talking or not talking to staff. Is that easier to understand?

8. Yes, I believe the ban should stay, just not be a perma ban. We do reductions all the time on bans, warns, etc. What point are you making here? It doesn't have to be either perma or nothing, it's not black and white.

I hope this helps clear up some of the incorrect viewpoints you seem to think I have.

TLDR: You would make a great politician.

[BGgamez YT]

[00:07] theblandbanana [traitor] has killed nico [innocent] with AWP

high sus theblandbanana

on topic, can anyone confirm how many reports were made and kept? if there were only three and one was invalid, then the ban would be invalid

Is there a way of staff seeing old reports, or is it just old logs?

So unfortunately there is no way to see old reports, after 2 maps the reports are lost. The only things that remain are the logs which are visible.

[TDawg4]

TLDR: Appeal accepted considering "time served" as appropriate for ban length (5ish days). Will unban when server is up.

To Frost: you stated that the ban itself was justified, just that these other factors should be mitigating I think we generally agree with that notion. I think you laid this out but when you simplify it all down you decided to rdm 6 people three of which reported and kept the reports. Staff online made the right call with going forward with the ban. Any future mass rdm ban will be a longer ban length, but yes as you said you aren't a guest that got on the server to play TDM or a cheater where the issue is likely to repeat.

To the comments/replies/overall community.

(From Virunas) 
If you have a valid reason to kill someone and are reported for it, it would be very helpful to the person handling your report if you would write that in the report response. We were only notified after the ban took place that Jack happened to be the last unproven player alive and there was/is no way of knowing whether or not frost had appreciated this fact at the time. 

Also gentle reminder that the !report command exists so that you can 1) forgive a report you already decided to keep and 2) you can make a report even if the popup doesn’t show up when you get killed.

(Back to me) 
Normal "perma" bans are just short for indefinite bans. Not a set length, but without successful appeal will go on indefinitely.

Forgiving or keeping a report after the fact (unless the original decision was an accident) isn't going to on its own undo a ban. Yeah we are going to look at it in the appeal, but after the slay or ban has gone through the next steps are to appeal like frost did here. We don't want people pushed into keeping or forgiving reports. This applies on the flip side where unless it is right at map switch you cannot go back and report someone for an rdm from the previous map or previous day etc etc. (Of course you can come back and forgive a report before a slay has gone through).

Someone delaying is not a reason to rdm. Just like if the last T is afk if you kill them before 5 minutes and they report it is still rdm. If you want them to be fspeced message staff. I realize we have been pretty lax in applying delay rules, and in response to all the comments about it we are going to be more vigilant.