[Foxka]

Since you're answering a few questions, what led you to believe that a community permanent ban for all players involved instead of going on a case by case basis was the correct decision to make? Additionally, with evidence not being presented due to fears of harassment of the people involved be proving that this ban wave didnt do anything to solve the harassment problem? Finally, my last question is why not just censor the withheld evidence like the presented screenshots? It seems counter intuitive to withhold potential evidence for such an extreme punishment.

[Young Spice]

I leave for this place for a couple of months... my comment is this: wtf is this mess??!!! Someone give me a TLDR?

I'd love to know too, but I'm pretty sure it's gonna sound biased no matter who tells it, lol. 

I think the problem started with admins banning players who they thought were in a group mentality [set to defy them at any cost]. And well, I could be (and I hope I am) wrong. 
But if this is the actual issue then it is up to the admins to right this wrong, not us. 
And if the opposite is true then, all I can advice is to be mindful of other's decisions and think about what you want and what you care about more than just,  "oh he/she's my friend gotta back em up anyways, lol" 

But those are just my thoughts, I've seen this scenario playout before with old friends, sadly no longer. It's sad but that's how life comes at you sometimes. :((

I'm praying for yall to work this out peacefully. ;))

[TheUltraFish]

Since you're answering a few questions, what led you to believe that a community permanent ban for all players involved instead of going on a case by case basis was the correct decision to make? Additionally, with evidence not being presented due to fears of harassment of the people involved be proving that this ban wave didnt do anything to solve the harassment problem? Finally, my last question is why not just censor the withheld evidence like the presented screenshots? It seems counter intuitive to withhold potential evidence for such an extreme punishment.

I'll try to answer these the best I can (sorry have a headache from work).

For the first question, I do not really know. As I said, my head was not in the game with this fully seeing that this was more of a TTT problem then a PH problem and I figured that the TTT staff would know how to handle TTT problems. This I would believe would be the case if the roles were reversed and a big PH problem appeared with maybe a couple of TTT ties as the PH admins would probably know how to handle the PH problem better than the TTT admins.

From some of the evidence we did see, the people being harassed did ask them to stop at the very least, some on multiple occasions. On the couple of cases where mob mentality was evident, it looked the person(s) tried to hide making the mob thing end as fast as possible or deflect as much as possible, if not leave the area altogether.

Due to what was said in the evidence, censoring names and pfp would have done nothing in protecting the individual with that evidence. The people would easily know the person on what was said. It could have been additionally censored I suppose but said proof would have looked absolutely useless to the community in the thread if it was included. Also some of those that were harassed that the proof not be made public for those very reasons.

As I have now looked into this whole thing more seriously, as I should have the first time (again I am sorry for this). I find that even though severe at least a couple of the punishments are for sure justified, some show nothing additional, and some are up for more debate. Some of things have been allowed to go on for too long and should have been resolved long before it got to this point.

[matt_st3 (Strongrule)]

As a previous admin, it was obvious that we could only act on what we were given. Keeping this in mind, several members/staff received punishments “late” because evidence only came to light all at once. However, many times this evidence did not immediately pull the trigger because we are responsible in part to resolve the situation before banning, where appropriate because some need immediate bans. Resolving usually meant trying to warn/tell the person to stop, and when they didn’t then well bye.
Some members had been warned, some not. Much of what was presented is old issues, I saw some of it happen back when I was an admin. Why not warn some of these members? Warning them provides a layer of evidence that you can show in these bans if they continue.
Others had been warned yes. Then continued. Why were steps not followed as the admins (TTT) has agreed on? A nice little guide was written and would have resulted in several demotions well before now. Or other punishments would have kicked in.
Most of the banned people have barely any actual connection with PH, so how PH admins had to get involved confuses me. We don’t usually involve other admins when one community is low so that’s unlikely.
So I’m going to try and pin down why exactly I’m so taken aback.
I’m not sure how much I trust evidence that can’t be shown, so I have to go by word. Dink I imagine mostly gave a seal of approval and didn’t heavily debate the details so that’s fine either way. I trust Gabe. I trust Nuru and I rarely interact with fish but you strike me as honest.
So what I have to conclude is that something happened 1) suddenly that 2) is so sensitive showing the community would actually make things worse with 3) all of the above people affecting 4) both PH and TTT players. If not, then why did dated evidence, a lot from another large and somewhat public discord, result in 7 synchronized *community* bans, now?
Granted I haven’t seen all but I am privy to quite a bit else that went on with some individuals. I still can’t make sense of the community bans for them. Demotion, temp bans, bans on certain platforms sure. I’m missing what’s special about this group.

[lacer]

Since you're answering a few questions, what led you to believe that a community permanent ban for all players involved instead of going on a case by case basis was the correct decision to make? Additionally, with evidence not being presented due to fears of harassment of the people involved be proving that this ban wave didnt do anything to solve the harassment problem? Finally, my last question is why not just censor the withheld evidence like the presented screenshots? It seems counter intuitive to withhold potential evidence for such an extreme punishment.

Due to what was said in the evidence, censoring names and pfp would have done nothing in protecting the individual with that evidence. The people would easily know the person on what was said. It could have been additionally censored I suppose but said proof would have looked absolutely useless to the community in the thread if it was included. Also some of those that were harassed that the proof not be made public for those very reasons.

Putting my two cents in on this, wouldn't it be counterproductive for anybody, including myself, to harass somebody who allegedly has evidence against us that is apparently enough to warrant a community ban? (on 7 people simultaneously, no less) Couldn't they just report us straight to the admins and make the decision final? Or block us? Or do something else? You treat us like we're the people that get on PH and harass the staff, which I personally don't think is fair. You've seen each and every one of us (except rits and lily, since they never got staff on their return) doing our jobs and being the best staff we could be. Isn't it right for me to see exactly what got me banned so I can learn from it and not continue this pattern of behavior in whatever other community I may find myself in? Censored proof isn't useless to the community, but expecting them to believe your word after you and the rest of the admin team broke their trust is.

[Seeker]

Sounds like a lot of opinions here...

On a serious note. The fact that our own "Community Leader" doesn't come to answer these types of questions, shines a greater light than anything else being said here.

[Mother Nuru.]

As a previous admin, it was obvious that we could only act on what we were given. Keeping this in mind, several members/staff received punishments “late” because evidence only came to light all at once. However, many times this evidence did not immediately pull the trigger because we are responsible in part to resolve the situation before banning, where appropriate because some need immediate bans. Resolving usually meant trying to warn/tell the person to stop, and when they didn’t then well bye.
Some members had been warned, some not. Much of what was presented is old issues, I saw some of it happen back when I was an admin. Why not warn some of these members? Warning them provides a layer of evidence that you can show in these bans if they continue.
Others had been warned yes. Then continued. Why were steps not followed as the admins (TTT) has agreed on? A nice little guide was written and would have resulted in several demotions well before now. Or other punishments would have kicked in.
Most of the banned people have barely any actual connection with PH, so how PH admins had to get involved confuses me. We don’t usually involve other admins when one community is low so that’s unlikely.
So I’m going to try and pin down why exactly I’m so taken aback.
I’m not sure how much I trust evidence that can’t be shown, so I have to go by word. Dink I imagine mostly gave a seal of approval and didn’t heavily debate the details so that’s fine either way. I trust Gabe. I trust Nuru and I rarely interact with fish but you strike me as honest.
So what I have to conclude is that something happened 1) suddenly that 2) is so sensitive showing the community would actually make things worse with 3) all of the above people affecting 4) both PH and TTT players. If not, then why did dated evidence, a lot from another large and somewhat public discord, result in 7 synchronized *community* bans, now?
Granted I haven’t seen all but I am privy to quite a bit else that went on with some individuals. I still can’t make sense of the community bans for them. Demotion, temp bans, bans on certain platforms sure. I’m missing what’s special about this group.

First off I didn't know you felt that way towards me and i appreciate it. thank you.

That aside I'll do my best to slide my opinional answers into here.
Ngl i didn't know there were "steps" with TTT admins that they agreed upon or at least that's how that came off. We cannot see TTT items etc. Gabe and I try to keep an open communication between the two servers at least within ourselves and i relay to fish. This is of course for the more serious things etc.
On how PH admins got involved?
I'll be honest. This whole thing was brought up because I suggested re community banning rits. Due to repeated behaviors, infractions/rule breaking, whatever you wish to call it. Repeated toxicity on her side.
With this came up others.
Now this is where we as admins are at fault. Instead of specify each one individually and listing the multiple warnings/infractions/etc, it was grouped under toxicity and hive minding. It is deeper than this. You are one of the only few I expect to understand this.

Many also ask why we don't share evidence. This is simple. We have literally been asked by those harassed, to keep them anonymous.
Yes we could blank out names and photos, but those that were doing the harassing, will know, and there are a few of them that will continue to harass even if they say they won't. I've seen them do it after being warned before.

Basically, it does boil down to what you said though Matt. We received a large number of complaints on a group of people that honestly didn't have too much to do with one another, some were just one or two people together, some alone for multiple reasons. You also are aware sometimes it takes quite a while for it to come to things like this, after small punishments or repeated warnings.

Now on some of these, as said before, I am up to reducing to smaller bans.
However there are a few of these that I am against reducing.

---

Since you're answering a few questions, what led you to believe that a community permanent ban for all players involved instead of going on a case by case basis was the correct decision to make? Additionally, with evidence not being presented due to fears of harassment of the people involved be proving that this ban wave didnt do anything to solve the harassment problem? Finally, my last question is why not just censor the withheld evidence like the presented screenshots? It seems counter intuitive to withhold potential evidence for such an extreme punishment.

Due to what was said in the evidence, censoring names and pfp would have done nothing in protecting the individual with that evidence. The people would easily know the person on what was said. It could have been additionally censored I suppose but said proof would have looked absolutely useless to the community in the thread if it was included. Also some of those that were harassed that the proof not be made public for those very reasons.

Putting my two cents in on this, wouldn't it be counterproductive for anybody, including myself, to harass somebody who allegedly has evidence against us that is apparently enough to warrant a community ban? (on 7 people simultaneously, no less) Couldn't they just report us straight to the admins and make the decision final? Or block us? Or do something else? You treat us like we're the people that get on PH and harass the staff, which I personally don't think is fair. You've seen each and every one of us (except rits and lily, since they never got staff on their return) doing our jobs and being the best staff we could be. Isn't it right for me to see exactly what got me banned so I can learn from it and not continue this pattern of behavior in whatever other community I may find myself in? Censored proof isn't useless to the community, but expecting them to believe your word after you and the rest of the admin team broke their trust is.

It would be counterproductive, and common sense says this. However, some of these people were told in the past to back off, block, etc, and did not, and continued to harass.
Therefore the best action is to protect those that are too scared to comment or come forward.

If you want me to be honest, going through some of the moderation queue, I will not lie, it's shown me it was proper to keep that evidence that was sensitive from some of you. You guys may have been good staff or members but this does not mean you cannot be at fault. We are going to fix the reasoning's on each person, and fully explain, and bring forth what evidence we can share that we haven't been told to with hold, on each one individually.
We should have to begin with, but we were in a rush, honestly. Because it was becoming an overbearing issue and more complaints coming up, and more and more people coming to us, and letting them know they were to scared of have an opinion publicly due to being shit all over frankly on STAFF APPS. The one place where you drop your opinion and let it go and let admins handle the decision, not go and attack someone for their opinions.

I personally am fully aware that accepting word is hard, it's why we are taking out time with this, and making sure everything is proper this time when we post. It will be explained.
As far as the comment on treating you like the people that come on ph and harass the staff, some of those banned, were like those people. Except instead of harassing staff, they were harassing members of the community to the point that many no longer felt comfortable to even play on the servers. If it was just one or two, it would have been a lot smaller and handled a lot more efficiently honestly. But it was many people and many players that were uncomfortable, and staff too. Therefore we jumped on it, and like I said, a little too quickly without properly explaining like we should have.

As always, this is my personal opinion and I do not speak for all.

---

A major concern of mine is the validity of the community bans. If not valid, and several are in question, there should be an unban without making the staff/players jump through additional steps. So here’s a straightforward way of presenting evidence for each ban and it’s reasoning.
What _______ did to deserve a community ban instead of (whichever applies) warning/probation/rank demotion/full demotion/temp ban/full ban in singular community/forum ban/discord ban: , , , , ,
Repeated for the I think 7 players
Edit: note that if it’s found that an above punishment should have been dished instead, then moved to that instead of just a straight unban like my post suggested.

---

And although I know there’s no way for us to check this, I’d love for it to be the original reason, not reasons found after the bans to justify them. Ought to save a little time

I personally like this and am going to leave it in the admin chat for discussion. It's the simplified way of doing it, on top of the other things we are doing.

[TheAloneOne]

Sounds like a lot of opinions here...

On a serious note. The fact that our own "Community Leader" doesn't come to answer these types of questions, shines a greater light than anything else being said here.

Big facts. Leaving poor Nuru and Fish to clean up this mess. #NuruAndFishForCommunityLeader

[Mother Nuru.]

Sounds like a lot of opinions here...

On a serious note. The fact that our own "Community Leader" doesn't come to answer these types of questions, shines a greater light than anything else being said here.

Big facts. Leaving poor Nuru and Fish to clean up this mess. #NuruAndFishForCommunityLeader

No

Also The four of us that made the decision are working together, it's not just the two of us.
I want that to be known.


Edit; We are the ones that made this mess, it is our job to fix it.

[matt_st3 (Strongrule)]

That’s fair, considering some of my recent posts can fry an egg and don’t specify which admins I’m meaning to talk about at that moment. Working on that, tho hopefully that’s starting to be clearer.

How to: Demotion thread is what I meant, considering several were staff. Tho yeah that’s under TTT and I originally thought this was a TTT started thing...

Tho now that Ive read the PH responses many many things are suddenly clear about how things went down and my initial assumptions were wrong. Piecing things together I can actually guess at the chain of events, and the community bans actually do follow a logic. Not the logic I’d want to follow but I can see how it go there. Yeah it should’ve been individually weighed still tho. I really don’t think I’m going to be convinced that each should stay a community ban but I do get the impression there’s a lot more than I thought.

So I shall be a good noodle and sit in my corner and wait. Not happy yet, but with 90% less cane swinging.