[OverwatchJunky]

Ok. I shall get right to it.

Some props are totally banned altogether due to abuse. I completely agree with that.

Some legal props can be placed/positioned in illegal manners. Again, I agree.

Some of my hiding spots have been confirmed legal by some staff in the midst of a game (Sometimes its mods and trusted)

But sometimes people think they are illegal.

I think we should make a thread specifically for discussing questionable spots, or spots people believe should or should not be illegal, because I hear one thing from some people and different words from others and that can be very frustrating when 2 different ruling come down for the same prop and location/position.

My personal belief: The smaller the prop, the more you should have visible (within reason) For example. Its been ruled that the blue chair you MUST have the blue part of the chair visible because the phrase "pixel hunt" gets spoken. And yes I completely agree that the small edge of that chair is not enough.

But what if you are a larger prop like say a ladder on YouTurd. Yes there is a portion of the ladder that when you angle it in just the right way it is absolutely invisible. But, as seen here, I have a portion of the prop clearly visible and I can be shot.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/u...7450C53E7/

Here is that spot from my Hunter view. I can clearly be seen in the first screenshot. I am definitely inconspicuous, but I AM visible. That is most definitely NOT a "pixel hunt". .

Here is a spot on Island House. I am in a tree as the champagne glass. Visible Shootable. And again, a spot that ha been confirmed by at least a few trusteds. Small prop, showing a good 50% of that prop.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/u...5400F8CD5/


THIS position as the ladder should totally be illegal because that tiny edge is in fact glitched and totally invisible.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/u...E4483646A/


As with many other legal props, the placement and position are crucial to determining what is or isn't illegal.

If that first image is illegal, then maybe the ladder should be banned altogether along with any other prop you can do glitch spots with.


If the criteria for legality is "visible and shootable" then that spot for the ladder is most definitely legal. I am difficult to see, yes, but difficult isn't impossible. Blnding into the map as long as I am not inside a mesh or a texture is legal. If someone is blind, is that my fault? lol

I just think its a little ridiculous that some people agree and others do not. Now that I am a Donor, I do not want to give people false information because I have been told 2 different answers to the same question.

I hope this discussion has a positive outcome.

[RedBoltyy]

Your not wrong at all.

One time I thought you could be a newspaper in the fountain in indoor pool but actually once you go into the fountain, you actually turn invisible so I don't know if there's a way that this invisible problem can be fixed since I am not a master at putting workshop stuff in a server but maybe dink can look into it.

[AzunaRiceBoy]

I mean it will say in the illegal spots list that meshing isnt allowed 
https://www.dinklebergsgmod.com/site/Thr...egal-Spots

And it's really up to the staff to see if the spot is alright or not.

Some spots are way to OP and you need to be a good hunter to get those players. Tbh no matter where your hiding some player will say that should be illegal. 

And also being in the water Fountain is illegal because Idk it always has been.

[VolfVoss]

  

These are acceptable hiding spots as you are visible. Both are poking out from the mesh and can be seen decently well. 


The yellow is what's visible of this prop but the RED is how much you could reasonably have visible in this spot as it blends in really well with the pipes. 


Again, same spot.  You blend in really well, it's unnecessary to be just a peg on any part of Youturd. I have literally hid as this prop against a tan wall and not been found.  Be Reasonable with your hiding. 


-----> The Spots De Illegal


IF you have to ask, you probably shouldn't be there or should have more of you visible. 

WE as staff have avoided giving you a percentage of visibility because we believe that you as a player should be able to discern the difference between FAIR and Illegal. There's also the Illegal spots list which was provided to help guide your understanding. We also do not want to micromanage everything you do, we'd like to play the game too.



The Fountain is off limits, anyone who reads the Illegal spots list would see that plain as day as it is the first spot listed. "ph_indoorpool: Inside the fountain water " 

[Steven [Prodigy]]

I think the issue with various mesh spots is that new players are unaware that props can hide there take for example your spot on island-house half the tree is filled in and the other half isn't. Obviously regulars know to check there but most players new to the game wont have an idea as to where you are because they will just assume its a whole tree. I think if you were to remove those hiding spots from play it would create other issues though. This is because there would be less variety in hiding spots and it would force people to hide more in the open, however this does admittedly benefit newer players to the community.

[Pixie Soldier]

So these issues have been discussed many times at length and opinions are always divided. We try to make things as fair as possible and also make things fun for everyone too. It’s a difficult balance. When I first joined I would look at others spots and think wow how did they do that? That motivated me to get better and more inventive with my spots. 

However it does irritate me when people constantly hide as a tiny part of a prop or try to bend the rules. Personally I mix it up depending on who is on the server. If I’m on with a lot of new players I will try and survive as the biggest prop in a ridiculous place, if our seasoned players are on then I’ll choose my more complicated spots. 

If we micro manage this issue too much it will take a lot of the fun out of the game and also makes it more difficult to staff. We use the spots list as guidance and we will also ask for opinions from each other if we aren’t sure. Will we get it right 100% of the time...no. Do we try to keep things as fair as possible...yes.

[OverwatchJunky]

  

These are acceptable hiding spots as you are visible. Both are poking out from the mesh and can be seen decently well. 


The yellow is what's visible of this prop but the RED is how much you could reasonably have visible in this spot as it blends in really well with the pipes. 


Again, same spot.  You blend in really well, it's unnecessary to be just a peg on any part of Youturd. I have literally hid as this prop against a tan wall and not been found.  Be Reasonable with your hiding. 


-----> The Spots De Illegal


IF you have to ask, you probably shouldn't be there or should have more of you visible. 

WE as staff have avoided giving you a percentage of visibility because we believe that you as a player should be able to discern the difference between FAIR and Illegal. There's also the Illegal spots list which was provided to help guide your understanding. We also do not want to micromanage everything you do, we'd like to play the game too.



The Fountain is off limits, anyone who reads the Illegal spots list would see that plain as day as it is the first spot listed. "ph_indoorpool: Inside the fountain water " 

But that's just it. I wasn't "asking" if the spot was illegal. I am clearly visible and shootable. The problem I am bringing up is that some people have differing opinions, and it is the worst when 1 higher up staff have given you a different ruling on the same spot than a moderator or trusted.

The amount of the prop you show is also most certainly based on who is on the opposite team. When its test mods, Donors and Regulars and any players who display a modicum of skill, I use those spots. Sometimes I get found, sometimes I don't. 9 times out of 10 on that map, I am called evil for using such a good spot.

The first screenshot with the peg sticking out is not the same angle as the second pic  where the ladder is at an extreme angle. The first shot has those pegs sticking out rather far. I  deliberately took 2 different screenshots to show which position IS legal and which is not. A significant piece of that prop is sticking out. I was found 3 prop rounds in a row by 3 different hunters. The second top down screenshot is the extreme abusive angle which exploits the small invisible edge. I know for sure that aligning that edge completely flat to a wall texture IS illegal. Sticking that peg out equates itself to the same problem with the Blue chair.

The issue I have is that some staff tell you its legal and some say its not.

And for some props those legal/illegal thresholds as well as the opinions are again varied and subject to opinion.

If someone wants me to show more of that prop, then that's fine, no problems. I have complied to those requests. But if someone (a regular or Donor) thinks my spot is illegal, then they can send me or a staff a message in game to turn the prop to be more visible. But I did not appreciate it when someone used the public chat game chat to openly call me out for this kind of spot. And even when I adjusted my spot to be MORE visible I was told not to hide there again based solely on their opinion.

I think the issue with various mesh spots is that new players are unaware that props can hide there take for example your spot on island-house half the tree is filled in and the other half isn't. Obviously regulars know to check there but most players new to the game wont have an idea as to where you are because they will just assume its a whole tree. I think if you were to remove those hiding spots from play it would create other issues though. This is  because there would be less variety in hiding spots and it would force people to hide more in the open, however this does admittedly benefit newer players to the community.

And I certainly do not object to hiding in the open Steven. When there are a bunch of new people or Users and Masters I will be huge props in a ridiculous spot. There are some spots like that where even a test mod or 2 could not find me because they simply could not tell what prop I was. I had to  send them screenshots. Then all I hear is laughter over the VC lol because the spot is so crazy.

[RussEfarmer]

In my time of staffing, before prop rotation, we've only ever asked ourselves two questions when checking if a spot is legal: can you be seen, and can you be shot? If any of those were not the case, it was illegal, and only very seldomly do we look at a prop/spot combination and say "okay yeah that fucking sucks don't hide there."

Now that we have prop rotation though, you can take just about any prop and any place on the map with non-square geometry (or just any geometry if the prop is fucked up enough), and just rotate to a position where literally less than a percentage of the original prop is visible. With this being the growing meta on Dinklebergs, staff have to expand the official list of questions to ask "Can they be seen, can they be shot, and does this spot suck so much to play against that it shouldn't be allowed?"

The only problem is that last question is inherently subjective to the staff member answering it. A staff member that is an expert at prophunt and knows to look for things like this would most definitely answer the question differently than someone who doesn't play prophunt very competitively, and that's a big hurdle for doing this fairly. The "pixelhunt" meta is too versatile to go through and document every single prop and prop combo in every single map reasonably, and realistically MUST be enforced using human subjectivity. Discrepancies are definitely going to happen, just like with the way different staff members take care of different types of players.

[TheUltraFish]

I have to agree with Russ on this one, it would be near impossible to document every prop and what would be considered legal or illegal with said prop. Even then, said prop in a particular spot could vary from map to map. Most of the staff are on the same page on what should be legal or illegal when it comes to prop hunt mesh and rotation spots. The only way to truly make it not subjective would be to have a full section on the forums with basically a thread for each spot explaining various spots that would be considered legal or illegal with pictures explaining various scenarios. That would take way too much time and would be nitpicking like hell. I do try to keep things overall loose on prop hunt and if a staff member asks you to either move or make yourself more visible than just do so, it is easier that way.

That is not to say people will not abuse this, it happens in a continuous loop every few months on severity and which players that are active on the server during said interval. There will be discrepancies amongst staff with certain spots and even then it could be seen as a case by case basis. It is not perfect but anything more would come across as overly strict.

The other way would be to remove prop rotation lock but that would cause issues with everyone I am pretty sure.

[Abdel]

Prop hunt should be a clear and straight forward game, props should be fair in how they hide and how the player should interpret what's legal and illegal to do. You keep saying that a certain upper staff told you some of your questionable spots were ok and that was @"Nuru" . This advice must either be dated or recent. I was shown what you were doing with the ladder and that was a big no. Those little hinges that are part of the prop are just around the size of what the peg leg of the blue chair would be. People shouldn't have to hide their props in the walls to begin with. Especially those props with broken hitboxes of rotation. This is only possible because of the prop menu letting you turn into it next to the walls. Prop sense is easy to get. My best advice is to think about spots if the prop menu didn't exist. And also think of the size of the prop, it's common sense that if you're only showing a peg of a big prop and the rest of it is in the wall, then something is wrong. Seasoned players will probably find you, but new players won't even know the prop menu exists. Even if they are told it's capabilities, most will think that wall hiding is cheap.