[RussEfarmer]

Depending on how low your karma gets it gets really hard to actually do stuff in the game, and the lower your karma is the harder it is to kill Ts to get the karma back

[Noire ♜]

p sure that you lose less karma if you kill someone with low karma

but yeah that's a neat idea that is really easy for a staff member to do --- it's not like we use !karma for anything tbh, besides karmabanning

[Jammin]

get better

+Rep
On a serious note we have no procedure in place for granting karma back, That's why I never fulfilled one of those requests.

May I suggest an official process?
If an inno kills an inno in self defense due to a karma bait, they file a report in RDM manager, and the reported player gets autoslain, perhaps we can add as part of our manual process to add back a certain amount of karma (assuming we can verify the victim did 'RDM' the autoslain player)?

[CBR600RR]

get better

+Rep
On a serious note we have no procedure in place for granting karma back, That's why I never fulfilled one of those requests.

May I suggest an official process?
If an inno kills an inno in self defense due to a karma bait, they file a report in RDM manager, and the reported player gets autoslain, perhaps we can add as part of our manual process to add back a certain amount of karma (assuming we can verify the victim did 'RDM' the autoslain player)?

This would need an adjustment in rules to make karma baiting a reportable offense. But I agree. I like this solution and would love to see it implemented into the server.
This would be very interesting to explore and determine an official set of rules regarding this. 
Excellent suggestion @Damien

[matt_st3 (Strongrule)]

What jammin describes would be a good situation for this, as the rdm manager tracks when someone rdms but the report is made by the dead player not the guy who killed the rdmr. Staff would have to rub a few braincells together but it is possible to do this. There is no procedure Bc it was a general no no back then to change the karma of a player, although exceptions were sometimes rarely made at discretion. I do not recall if that was dakodys call or dink tho, but I do remember staff subjectively doing this was causing a lot of whining bc “he got his karma reset why can’t I :(:(:(“ and such. Hopefully a tmod is well versed enough with the manager and rules to know when the karma can be added back, and this would give a use to the command past its use as a temp ban.
Check with dink, but it may be worth a rule addition.

[Jammin]

Karma baiting is reportable if actual damage is done. I see the issue with non-damaging karma baiting not being RDM.

[EpicGuy]

ContrarianGuy back with another contrarian opinion.

Is this really something that's needed? How often are you (not Damien. A general statement) getting RDMed by someone and need to shoot back? How often are you thinking that you're shooting a T and in reality you're shooting an Innocent? The entire point of the karma system is to discourage you from "thinking" that you're shooting someone who is a T and encourage shooting someone because you "know" they're a T. If your karma is consistently low because you think you're shooting a T and you're actually shooting an Innocent because your rationale is flawed, milk already told you to get better.

To piggyback off of what matt said, back in the day, I was hesitant to give karma back because what would I reset the karma too? If I reset the karma to something higher than it was previously, than they have an advantage that they would otherwise not have. If I reset it to something lower than what they had previously, then the person is going to bug me and say that it was higher than what I reset it to. And what proof do they have? Are they going to take a screenshot of their scoreboard before the round ends and send me the screenshot so I know what their karma was before they RDMed? I don't care about that and I'm not paying attention to upwards of 31 other people's karma. I barely pay attention to my own. And in the grand scheme of things that I have to worry about, your karma is near the bottom of my list of priorities. Near the top of my priorities is handling the RDM report that is inevitably coming in because you killed the troll that killed you, or making sure that the person you killed didn't RDM more people and seeing if they need to be banned.

If we add a certain amount of karma back to an Innocent protecting themselves against another Innocent, I would assume that almost always, the amount of karma we add back would be less than what the player lost, which would most likely lead to people complaining about not getting all of the karma they lost back. And if we're not adding all of the karma back what is the point? For that extra 5-10 damage points they lost?

Furthermore, assuming default settings are being used on the server and that a player hasn't damaged or killed their teammate, a player will get 35 karma back at the end of the previous round/the beginning of the next round

ttt_karma_clean_bonus (def. 30):

If a player has not hurt or killed a teammate this round, he will be “healed” an extra 30 karma (for a total of 35, under default settings). So if you have bad karma it is rewarding to lie low.

You also get karma back for damaging and killing Traitors

ttt_karma_traitordmg_ratio (def. 0.0003):
Like ttt_karma_ratio, but for the karma reward for damaging a traitor. By default damaging a traitor is rewarded roughly 1/4th of the penalty you’d get if it were a full-karma innocent.

ttt_karma_traitorkill_bonus (def. 40):
Bonus karma for killing a traitor. Scaled by the traitordmg_ratio.

TL;DR: In my opinion, adding this rule/change is not needed. And we don't need to go around changing more stuff by adding an integration with the RDM Manager. I'm sure that'll be a headache with testing and deployment, and something will probably break. I mean, we just got the magneto stick working again ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) But if this change is agreed upon, I'll just have to suck it up and deal with it. It isn't the worst thing that's been changed.

[Wrong]

I don't find this to be such a common occurrence that it needs to be done.. at best, it should be up to staff discretion, but in 99% of cases you'll rdm 1-2 people and be at 800 karma. not that bad

[matt_st3 (Strongrule)]

Notably: do not automate this. It should be a staff discretion based on the manager but don’t try fucking with the system to try and make it happen. I didn’t think anyone would try but I see it brought up. If admins want to try allowing staff to use this cool, but it is still a rare occurrence and case by case.

[Damien]

I think an automated system for it would be garbage. I just want staff with the !karma command to do it since all it's really used for is for karma bans.